Evidence of meeting #69 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-49.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Fraser River Pile & Dredge (GP) Inc.
Madam Chair, I need to excuse myself.
I know my colleague, Jean-Philippe, can answer any further questions.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much.
I hope you have a good trip back.
My next question is a hypothetical one, of course, but it might help me to understand some points better.
Reciprocity is not in the agreement, but let's imagine for a minute that it is there.
Accepting that transporting containers and dredging seem to me to involve two completely different approaches, I would like to know if the Canadian industry could be competitive, given the rules, the salaries and the working conditions. If not, are we doomed to be limited to the Canadian market and to protect it because we are the only ones that operate under those rules?
4:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate and Legal Affairs, Ocean
I can answer that as it pertains to dredging.
As we explained just now, Europe is not so far away: you have Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Guadeloupe and St. Martin. We already have a presence in those areas and we are competing with European dredgers right now. They choose the bigger contracts, because they have equipment of the right size. But we try to find our niche and to fit in. So, yes, we actually can be competitive. Even if it takes us two weeks to get from Canada to the Dominican Republic, we still manage to win contracts.
4:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate and Legal Affairs, Ocean
There is so much to do there that you need a lot of equipment. In order to get there, the transportation costs would be too high. Anyway, they already take care of their own market over there.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Earlier, you talked about Belgium and the Netherlands. I assume that there is a link between all the canals they have to maintain and dredging, which is why those countries have developed such a big industry.
4:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate and Legal Affairs, Ocean
Exactly.
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, St. Lawrence Shipoperators
I think that Mr. Brunet dealt with the dredging issue well.
As for whether it would be possible for Canadian shipowners to compete in Europe if ever the market were reciprocal, the answer is no. As I mentioned just now, European vessels have much lower operating costs than ours.
There is another factor. Most of the Canadian fleet are lakers. The vessels are not designed to sail on the open sea, which is what you need to get to those markets.
Be that as it may, the main reason is that the operating costs are different from ours.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
In terms of the dredging industry, we thought it was a long way away, but it is clearly coming sooner than expected. The Northwest Passage in the Arctic will be a source of contracts for your industry. It is both near and far, given the vastness of our territory.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate and Legal Affairs, Ocean
For the time being, we don't know what the situation is there. The mapping of the North is not complete. There may be high volumes, but right now, the routes in demand are those that are navigable right now. That's still a long way away and it requires extensive mobilization. In addition, the dredging period is very short. You need high-performance equipment for a large volume in a very short time.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
The expansion prospects for your industry are extremely limited.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate and Legal Affairs, Ocean
Yes, they are minimal.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much.
We have completed our preliminary list. Are there any questions on this side that have to have answers? I guess there are none on that side either.
Mr. Graham.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I wanted to pick up where we left off. I was having fun.
For comparison, I was trying to think of a good example of cabotage in land terms, which more people understand. I have an 18-wheeler in Virginia, and I drive it up to Ottawa, and I unload it. I have another load I have to pick up in Montreal and I have to get it back to Virginia. With the cabotage rules we're bringing in today, I can take my trailer from Ottawa to Montreal to pick up my next load, whereas the current system is that I have to deadhead my truck to Montreal and hire someone else to tow my trailer to Montreal. Is that not correct? Would that not be an equivalent to...?
4:50 p.m.
President, Seafarers' International Union of Canada
I'm not an expert in the trucking industry, but I'll attempt anything. If you're looking under NAFTA, I know there are provisions in NAFTA right now that allow for cross-border trucking between Mexico and the United States. From what I understand, that provision has never been implemented when it comes to trucking in the United States, because the teamsters have had them tied up in courts since NAFTA was actually negotiated. Again, I'm not an expert on trucking.
Let me put it in terms of airlines, which I'm not an expert in either. A Canadian aircraft goes from Toronto to Berlin. Is it considered cabotage?
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
If it has to come back from London, and it has to deadhead between them—
4:50 p.m.
President, Seafarers' International Union of Canada
It's all considered cabotage.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
—are you going to tell me you're going to have to get a larger jumbo jet, like a, what are those things called...?
4:50 p.m.
President, Seafarers' International Union of Canada
It's considered cabotage.
I have another example that goes right to maritime. Oil or bitumen leaves the tar sands and goes to Texas, where it's processed, put back in a ship, and brought back to Canada. That's all cabotage because of the origin of it. That's the definition under Transport Canada. This is one of the areas you get into. According to the owner of that ship, and this is a specific one, his definition of cabotage doesn't kick in until the ship enters Canadian waters, but the real definition is when the ship is loaded with the cargo in Texas, because it's a Canadian-originating cargo. That whole trip is cabotage. It is the same with the airlines.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
In the circumstances of this bill, C-49, what we're talking about moving is empty, not loaded, containers. If I—
4:50 p.m.
President, Seafarers' International Union of Canada
It's still considered a product. The container is the movement of the product.