Evidence of meeting #70 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was passengers.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Helena Borges  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Melissa Fisher  Associate Deputy Commissioner, Mergers Directorate, Competition Bureau
Ryan Greer  Director, Transportation and Infrastructure Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Mark Schaan  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Monopolistic Practices Directorate, Competition Bureau
Douglas Lavin  Vice-President, Members and External Relations, North America, International Air Transport Association
Glenn Priestley  Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association
Allistair Elliott  International Representative, Canada, Canadian Federation of Musicians
John McKenna  President and Chief Executive Officer, Air Transport Association of Canada
Francine Schutzman  President, Local 180, Musicians Association of Ottawa-Gatineau, Canadian Federation of Musicians
Bernard Bussières  Vice President, Legal Affairs and Corporate Secretary, Transat A.T. Inc., Air Transat
Neil Parry  Vice-President, Service Delivery, Canadian Air Transport Security Authority
Jeff Walker  Chief Strategy Officer, National Office, Canadian Automobile Association
Massimo Bergamini  President and Chief Executive Officer, National Airlines Council of Canada
George Petsikas  Senior Director, Government and Industry Affairs, Transat A.T. Inc., Air Transat
Jacob Charbonneau  President and Chief Executive Officer, Flight Claim Canada Inc.
Daniel-Robert Gooch  President, Canadian Airports Council
Gábor Lukács  Founder and Coordinator, Air Passenger Rights
Meriem Amir  Legal Advisor, Flight Claim Canada

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

The short answer is yes. We're always looking at how we can improve transportation, and it is—as you know very well, because you have been particularly focused on it, as I know it's a strong interest of yours—a very complex set of files, and when we do come forward with a project like Bill C-49, which does actually have concrete measures in it, there's a tendency to ask about the stuff we didn't put in there. We're working on it. We're working on a whole bunch of things ultimately to make transportation safer, greener, more innovative, and economically as efficient as possible. All of these things touch on that. We continue to work at Transport Canada, and I want to give a shout-out to my ministry. We have more than 5,000 people who are very competent people and who are working very hard to try to make our transportation system the best in the world, and we are the best in the world on some of it.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Finally, Minister, we're entering into NAFTA. We have CETA in place. How do you see now transportation becoming more of an enabler with our international trade?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

I have already met a number of times with Secretary Chao, Secretary of Transportation in the United States, on the issues that touch on transportation that are critical. There's the fact that we're the two strongest trading partners in the country. Some 30,000 trucks go across the border every day and 4,600 train cars cross the border every day. We trade enormously, and we need to make it as efficient as possible. We need to harmonize regulations on both sides of the border so that we don't have any impediments to moving fluidly between our two countries. We need to make the process of security control as rapid and as efficient as possible.

Those are things that are top priorities for both our countries, for that $635 billion U.S. we do in trade every year, and we'll continue to do that. I would say that within the NAFTA negotiations, there's a pretty good consensus on transportation.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Ms. Raitt.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

It's back to me again, Minister. It's more like a conversation than it is anything else, I think. The officials around you are probably thinking that this feels like the briefings they used to give me all the time in terms of questions.

Briefly, I want to say that I understand—I know that I'm talking to somebody who understands this—that there is a delicate balancing act when it comes to the portfolio. In the air sector you have to balance airlines, airports, and consumers. You have the bill of rights with that one. In marine you have cargo carriers, ports, shippers. All those guys are important.

In rail you have a different balancing act. It's a very difficult one, I will tell you. You know it's difficult. On one side it's farmers, forestry, mining, containers, and all that. On the other side it's rail companies, and then throw in a little dash of unions. It's a very difficult area. Any time you move off the status quo, which Bill C-49 does, you're going to have people who are winners and people who are losers. Our attempt here is to try to figure out what the best balance is.

I'd like to go back to something you said to I think Mr. Sikand or Mr. Fraser. It had to do with whether or not we need in Bill C-49 the ability, again, for the CTA to do self-implementation. This time I'll give the example of forestry, which is very different.

FPAC came to this committee and asked to have the ability for the agency to intervene so that they will be able to study something. I think it comes from a real place, because as my colleague Mr. Chong pointed out, we have seen this movie before in terms of having emergencies in the transportation of grain and transportation of commodities. Sometimes the politics that invariably are in a minister's office can cloud the quickness by which you can make a direction for a study to happen. It happens in all parties. It's not a partisan issue here. This happens in all parties.

I'm trying to understand, Minister, why you don't think it's a good idea for the CTA to have that experience, to be those people who are the knowledge people in the business, seeing a certain situation happening again where they can actually take action and get in there quicker in order to resolve these disputes because they have the ability to look at it themselves.

That's an area where I'm really concerned about the balance. I don't see the purpose in having the minister hold the only power to start off an investigation by means of a notice of direction. I have used that and you have used that in the past, but we're not always going to be.... I'm not going to be the transport minister, and one day you won't be the transport minister. We have to make the system work for everybody forever.

You have to bear in mind that sometimes ministers just won't take action, so why not have the CTA have that power?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

Well, you and I will not necessarily be ministers of transport in the future, but the good news is that we have a ministry where there is continuity. The way things are organized at the moment, I would say to you that we fully respect the independence of the CTA, and it is as it should be. It is a quasi-judicial body that needs to have that independence.

Having said that, we do talk to each other. We do keep each other informed, so I am very comfortable about the fact that the mechanisms exist at Transport Canada. I'm even more happy with the data provisions that are included in this bill, such that we will have even greater awareness of the situation with respect to issues of rail transport in this country.

I think it is unnecessary to make changes at the moment. I think the CTA will have enormous responsibilities with respect to making sure that the measures that we've put in place with respect to freight rail transportation are dealt with efficiently and in a timely fashion. They will make us aware if there are problems that they perceive have not been addressed. Of course, we've also given them additional important responsibilities with respect to the passenger bill of rights, so they have lots of responsibilities on their plate, our channels are open, and I believe we have in place a good system that doesn't need to be changed.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Thank you.

Minister, on the passenger bill of rights, bearing in mind that the CTA is going to be developing the regulations, and you've fleshed out what they should be looking at, can you give us a timeline for implementation? When will the passenger bill of rights go live for Canadians?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

How quickly are you going to pass this bill?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Well, let's pretend it passes today. What's the date that you can give Canadian passengers?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

Okay, well, immediately—sorry, I couldn't help that.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Last time I checked, Minister, you guys had a little thing called a majority.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

Of course, I fully respect the autonomy of the transport, infrastructure, and communities committee.

Our intention would be for the CTA to get to work very quickly on its consultation process and to present to us some time early next year their recommendations with respect to it. They, of course, respecting the will of Parliament and the authority of Parliament, cannot get on with this work officially unless this bill gets royal assent. If it does, they will proceed forthwith. I've spoken with Scott Streiner, the head of the CTA. We will then look at it, and we hope to have the charter of rights in place some time in 2018.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Minister Garneau.

We have three minutes for Mr. Hardie.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Minister Garneau, you and I had a brief offline discussion about the interest in air travel in my home riding. I was going to ask you some questions after the fact, but maybe we can do it right now and just make it really simple.

My folks in Fleetwood—Port Kells do a lot of air travel by virtue of the makeup of the community and where folks are coming from, either visiting or for business. They really want to give you their input on the air passenger bill of rights.

As we go forward into the regulations that will actually have the details as to how the bill of rights will work, what are you going to be thinking about as those details come together? What input would you value from my constituents or anybody else in terms of informing the way those details come together?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

I would welcome all input. I can tell you that 10 days ago—and I won't say what airport I was in—I was approached by somebody working for an airline, and offered $400 to take a later flight. It's not the first time it's happened to me, so I am aware of the issue of overbooking. I've heard from tons of people. I've even done Facebook chats and heard about these things, but I welcome all input.

I, like everybody else, watched what happened with United Airlines. I, like everybody else, watched what happened with the Air Transat situation at Ottawa airport. I am hearing from a lot of Canadians. I've heard about Canadians who have said that they resent having to pay extra so that their kids can sit beside them. Yes, I've heard from people in the music industry whose instruments are extremely expensive and are their livelihood. They have felt that their instruments were not properly handled. I've heard from a huge number of people. I welcome all input on this. Though the charter of rights will be in place, it is something that will be open to making changes as required under compelling situations if it has areas that it has not addressed or that are inadequate in any way.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Basically, your time is up, Mr. Hardie.

Minister Garneau, thank you so much for spending two hours with us. I think you will have heard that the committee has functioned extremely well, and I believe we all have the very best interests for Canada in mind and we are working very well together to ensure that Bill C-49 is the very best it can be.

Thank you to you and your staff for being here.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC

Madam Chair, I would like to say one last thing.

I too have to say that in the last hour while I was answering questions what was going through my mind was the loss of our dear colleague Arnold. I think, David, you were extremely eloquent. I would ask us all to reflect on Arnold's last opportunity to stand up in the House of Commons last June. If ever there was a display of non-partisanship and generosity from somebody who was living in incredibly difficult circumstances, I think he was a shining example.

I just wanted to say that today.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Garneau.

We will suspend for the other panel to come to the table.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We reconvene our meeting with our next panel. We have with us representatives from the Department of Industry, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, and the Competition Bureau. Welcome to you all. We very much appreciate your being here.

The Department of Industry rep, Mark Schaan, would you like to introduce yourself, and start with your opening remarks?

11:40 a.m.

A voice

[Inaudible—Editor]

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

All right, terrific.

11:40 a.m.

Melissa Fisher Associate Deputy Commissioner, Mergers Directorate, Competition Bureau

Madam Chair, my name is Melissa Fisher. I'm the associate deputy commissioner in the mergers directorate at the Competition Bureau. I'm joined today by my colleague, Anthony Durocher, the deputy commissioner of the monopolistic practices directorate at the bureau.

Also present is Mark Schaan, director general of the marketplace framework policy branch at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. He is in charge of competition policy, while the Bureau carries out the independent enforcement function.

I understand that the committee has questions about changes in the bureau's role in relation to the review of arrangements between air carriers, as set out in Bill C-49.

I'll begin by providing some context about the bureau and its mandate. I will then speak to the bureau's experience in reviewing agreements and arrangements between air service providers. Finally, I will address the provisions of Bill C-49 that would impact the bureau's role in examining these types of agreements or arrangements.

The Bureau is an independent law enforcement agency that ensures that Canadian consumers and businesses prosper in a competitive and innovative marketplace that delivers lower prices and more product choice. Headed by the Commissioner of Competition, the Bureau is responsible for the administration and enforcement of the Competition Act and three of Canada's labelling statutes.

The act provides the commissioner with the authority to investigate anti-competitive behaviour. The act contains both civil and criminal provisions and covers conduct such as false and misleading representations, abuse of a dominant market position, mergers, and price-fixing. Civil matters are resolved before the Competition Tribunal, a specialized adjudicative body that comprises Federal Court judges and laypersons with expertise in business, commerce, or economics, whereas criminal matters are resolved before the courts. The act also provides the commissioner with the ability to make representations before regulatory boards, commissions, or other tribunals to promote competition in various sectors. The basic operating assumption of the bureau is that competition is good for both businesses and consumers.

Today I am here to talk about the bureau's role in reviewing arrangements between air carriers and how that role would change if Bill C-49 were passed.

The bureau has a significant amount of experience reviewing arrangements, including mergers and joint ventures, in the air transport sector. From the development of the first broad airline alliances in the late 1990s to the acquisition of Canadian Airlines by Air Canada in 2000 and the entry, and sometimes exit, of a number of carriers since then, the bureau has examined a variety of arrangements between air carriers that could harm businesses and consumers who rely on air services through increased prices and reduced choice.

Notably, in 2011, the bureau challenged before the tribunal a proposed joint venture between Air Canada and United Continental that involved co-operation on certain key aspects of competition, including pricing, capacity setting, frequent flyer programs, and revenue and cost sharing. After conducting an in-depth review, the bureau determined that the proposed joint venture would have resulted in the airlines' jointly monopolizing 10 key Canada-U.S. transporter routes and substantially reducing competition on nine additional routes. In turn, this would have likely led to increased prices and reduced consumer choice. Ultimately, the bureau reached a negotiated resolution with the parties. The consent agreement entered into prohibits Air Canada and United Continental from implementing their joint venture agreement on 14 transborder routes.

The Air Canada-United Continental matter is an example of how the bureau might review an air services arrangement under the Competition Act. The bureau typically examines this type of arrangement in the context of either the merger or the competitor collaboration provisions in the act, depending on how the arrangement is structured. These arrangements can have positive effects, such as increasing efficiency and competitiveness, in turn allowing Canadians to benefit from lower prices and better product choice. However, they can also raise competition concerns. If the commissioner determines that an arrangement is likely to result in a substantial lessening or prevention of competition, which is the statutory threshold, he may, subject to an exception for notifiable transactions under the act, challenge it before the Competition Tribunal, or alternatively, seek a consensual resolution with the parties in the form of a consent agreement.

With respect to the factors considered in reviewing mergers or agreements among competitors, the bureau undertakes an exhaustive, fact-intensive and evidence-based review, including quantitative analysis. In analyzing an airline joint venture, the bureau will focus on routes where there is overlap or potential overlap in the service by the parties.

In particular, the bureau typically considers whether the joint venture partners provide competing air passenger services on specific origin-destination city pairs, such as Toronto to Chicago or Winnipeg to North Bay. The bureau also assesses whether consumers view, for example, non-stop or one-stop service, or business and leisure travel as substitutes for one another. The bureau also considers whether there are competitors serving the parties' overlapping routes, any barriers to entry, and whether existing or potential competitors may constrain the ability of the parties to the arrangement to raise prices.

A joint venture that reduces the number of competitors or potential competitors on an already concentrated route will raise concerns. For any particular overlapping route, the bureau will want to ensure that consumers have access to competitive prices and services, and that a proposed arrangement would not result in any route being captive to one or more airlines with enhanced market power.

To assess the competitive impacts of a proposed joint venture, the bureau can require significant amounts of data and other market information from the parties to the joint venture and other market participants. This information is necessary for an informed and credible review based on sound economic principles. The bureau may seek such information on a voluntary basis from the parties to the arrangement, from third parties with knowledge of the industry, or from consumers. At times, it may also seek the issuance of a court order requiring that certain information be produced.

Bill C-49 establishes a new process for the review and authorization of arrangements involving two or more transportation undertakings providing air services. This process will cover all types of arrangements among air carriers, other than arrangements that would be considered notifiable transactions under the Competition Act. Notifiable transactions are transactions that meet specific financial thresholds regarding the size of the parties and the size of the transaction, and that cannot be completed until the commissioner has had an opportunity to review. Notifiable transactions have been subject to a potential public interest review by the minister of transport since 2000.

Bill C-49 proposes a new process for arrangements involving air services that will enable air carriers to voluntarily seek authorization of a proposed arrangement from the minister of transport. The commissioner will receive a copy of any notice of an arrangement that is provided to the minister, along with any information required by the guidelines.

If the minister determines that the proposed arrangement raises significant considerations with respect to the public interest, then the commissioner is required, within 120 days of receiving the initial notice, to report to the minister and the parties on any concerns regarding the potential prevention or lessening of competition that could occur as a result of the proposed arrangement. A summary of the commissioner's report may be made public. I would note in this respect the bureau's ongoing commitment to transparency within the limits of our confidentiality obligations, and that this commitment would continue under this process as well.

The bureau will carry out its usual competitive analysis, but to the extent that the arrangement raises competition concerns, it will not have the option of settling those concerns with the parties directly through the negotiation of remedies or by applying for a remedial order from the tribunal. The final decision in these matters will rest with the minister of transport, and the minister will consult with the commissioner on any remedial measures relating to competition.

In cases where the parties do not seek an authorization from the minister, or where the minister does not trigger a public interest review, the bureau will assess the arrangements under the Competition Act in the usual manner and without any change from its current process. The bureau will make its staff available to consult with the minister of transport to develop guidelines as required by the bill, and is committed to working with transport, including taking steps to ensure that the guidelines require parties to produce the information that the bureau needs to undertake an informed competition analysis.

While the bureau and the minister will work together to share information, the bureau's review of arrangements will remain separate and independent from the public interest review conducted by the minister.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Do you want to make another few remarks?

11:50 a.m.

Associate Deputy Commissioner, Mergers Directorate, Competition Bureau

Melissa Fisher

No, but I thank you for the opportunity to appear today.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Who would like to go next?