Transport Committee on Sept. 14th, 2017

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

You've been advocating for a passenger rights regime for quite some time. It's been a while since you've been doing this, so over that course of time, I'm sure that you've been communicating with people to sort of gather information on what those needs actually are. Again, going back to my first question, did we capture it? Do we have more to do? What specifics haven't we captured? What specifics can we actually take the next step towards? I go back to the panel that was before you. I'm just trying to sort of get down in the weeds a bit and be a bit more pragmatic, beyond the introduction of this bill.

[Jacob Charbonneau]

What matters is the way passengers will be informed afterwards. We may have the finest legislation and regulations in place, but if people do not know their rights and the recourse available to them, those laws and regulations are not very useful.

We realize that, although European regulations have been around since 2004 or 2005, few people in Canada have been aware of them in recent years. Less than 2% of people in North America made claims as a result of delays or cancellations, because they were unaware of their rights or did not want to fight with the airlines.

First, people must be informed of their rights. Second, the airlines must comply with the regulations in place. Customers come to us after trying to approach the airlines that have rejected their claims. They are not very familiar with the legislation, and once their claim is rejected, they do not think they have anywhere else to go, whereas the provisions in place would allow them to obtain compensation.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

What I'm getting at essentially is the next steps. We all know what happened in the past. In the last panel, the message I was trying to get across was “Let's move forward.” Let's work together to ensure that we can deal with this. It is an ongoing process; there's no question. The problems are not going to stop tomorrow; they're going to continue. With that, and with your comments just now, what do you think a fair metric is going to be? We recognize what outcomes we want to recognize. Performance measures are a key part of that, so that we can continue to challenge these problems head-on. What metric, what performance measure do you think would be appropriate? Where is the benchmark?

[Jacob Charbonneau]

Actually, a number of measures can be taken, such as examining the impact of the legislation and regulations on the number of delays and cancellations. Travellers who have experienced delays or cancellations should also be surveyed to determine whether they fully know their rights. We then need to ensure that people are aware of their rights.

During the recent delays on the tarmac, I was surprised to see that the crew members were not specifically trained on the airline's tariffs. Airline employees should be trained so that they are also familiar with the passengers’ rights and able to share the information with them afterwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Charbonneau, I feel that many people would like to file complaints, but they do not know where to go. If everybody knew their rights, how many complaints do you think we would see on this screen?

[Meriem Amir, Legal Advisor, Flight Claim Canada]

Could you speak louder? I did not hear.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If everybody knew their rights, how many complaints would there be?

[Jacob Charbonneau]

There would probably be as many complaints as customers who have been affected by a situation that would require a complaint. However, if people were aware of their rights and there was a process in place, they would no longer have to file a complaint because recourse would be available to them.

That is the direction we want to see Bill C-49 move in. People need to be provided with tools so that they no longer need to file a complaint for compensation or settlement. Provisions need to be in place in advance to allow them to get compensation without having to file a complaint and always having to fight to get something.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You were talking a lot about the Montreal convention earlier. Are there any enforcement mechanisms in the Montreal convention itself?

[Gábor Lukács]

Is the question for me?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes. I know they can answer, but I'm asking you.

[Gábor Lukács]

The Montreal convention allows enforcement through the courts. It is also incorporated in the airlines' tariffs, so it is currently the option that offers the most tools for enforcement.

It does not carry penalties. It does not have specific enforcement mechanisms. What we do see in claims relating to the Montreal convention is that the passenger makes a claim for a delay in their flight and gets back an email from Air Canada, for example, thanking them for their email and saying, “Here's 25% off your next flight.” They're completely ignoring the substance of the complaint.

Overall, the picture we see with both the Montreal convention and the tariff system is that the rules are written down there, but airlines are training their lower-level staff to ignore complaints of this nature and provide template answers that essentially are evasive.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

On your chart that you've put up here, you say that the complaints have quadrupled over four years, but we can see fairly clearly that the complaints quadrupled this year. Can you speak to what caused a spike after many years of relative stability?

[Gábor Lukács]

The spike this year was caused by a massive campaign by the Canadian Transportation Agency, as I understand it, to draw attention to itself. However, unfortunately that massive campaign was not coupled with actual structural changes. Passengers are still being sent away without their complaints being resolved.

Just last year it happened that when CBC got on the story that a passenger was being sent away, then all of a sudden people from the agency were very apologetic. It got solved very quickly. However, I don't think Canadian passengers should be walking with a lawyer on their left and a journalist on their right to ensure their rights are respected.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's fair.

You've indicated that you're not happy with the CTA itself. How would you restructure? How would you change it?

[Gábor Lukács]

To me, the CTA as an organization is beyond redemption. I would like to see the responsibilities partially transferred to Transport Canada in terms of the regulation-making powers, and then the enforcement and the consumer protection to a separate agency that has a single mandate of consumer protection and has stronger mechanisms in place to prevent conflict of interest and regulatory capture.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You talked about having filed I think 32 preventive complaints that succeeded.

[Gábor Lukács]

It was 26.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Twenty-six? Right. That's a good number for an individual. What were these complaints?

[Gábor Lukács]

These complaints were related to Air Canada's refusal, for example, to compensate passengers for damage to baggage when they rip off the handle or damage the wheels. More known issues are the liability of WestJet for baggage on domestic flights, which used to be $250 and was raised to over $1,800 as a result of my complaint, or the amount of denied boarding compensation payable by Air Canada, which was raised from $100 to up to $800, depending on the length of the delay, as a result of my complaint. There was a wide range of issues relating to matters that affect passengers in their daily dealings with airlines.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Gooch, I know you said you weren't closely involved in any way with the Ottawa airport, but the Air Transat incident is obviously one that's on our minds. You talked about the airport passenger care plan. What are the mechanics of an air passenger care program for an emergency like the one that happened in Ottawa?

[Daniel-Robert Gooch]

I'm not as familiar with the technical details, but it would be something that would be created by the airport authority in conjunction with the air carrier partners in that airport. Airports vary quite significantly from one part of the country to another in terms of complexity. Airports have plans for all kinds of contingencies, from security incidents, to safety incidents, to irregular operations. They try to think of the needs of travellers in that type of situation and to predict what might be needed. In some cases, it may be buses to get travellers off an aircraft, snacks and food that can be brought out, maybe cots, and that sort of thing, but it would vary. I'm not personally familiar with the details of that particular airport's plan.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Yurdiga.