Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2017

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I know the minister answered this somewhat, but I would like to hear it from you as well, since for the most part, we understand that you folks are the ones with the feet on the ground and are really accepting a lot of the input from the public consultations that have occurred. Can you be a bit more specific about who you've met with, some of the comments that were made, both good and bad, with respect to bringing us to where we are today?

[Natasha Rascanin]

There was a range of input that we received across the different consultations and engagement sessions. Certainly, I would say that everybody is interested in enhanced marine safety and enhanced environmental protections, and in making sure that economic opportunities are also considered. Therefore, there was an awful lot of similarity in those thoughts. Certain groups put more weighting on one of those elements than others, but they all considered them important elements to our society and to Canada as whole.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

We always try to look at things through a triple bottom line process when it comes to the environment, the economic, and the social, and I can see this sort of establishing that balance.

My last question is on whether you see that this process, more so than the actual bill itself—the process that has brought us to the point where the bill is—can be used as a template in other areas to further our responsibility, especially when it comes to the environment, while still trying to balance the economic and social sides of it throughout the country?

[Natasha Rascanin]

My view is not necessarily the right take on this, in that officials do not provide views.

What I believe is fundamental to this is that from all of the scientific assessments, the work that we do, we take that into consideration as we go forward, so absolutely, lessons learned are critical.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

The bottom line is that a lot of it has to do with being science based.

[Natasha Rascanin]

Evidence based....

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Evidence based.

Great. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our officials for being here.

I know governments like to.... It's the nature of politics to take credit for stuff, especially if they're attempting to do the right thing.

I'd say a lot of the success.... It's been a 40-year conversation in the northwest of British Columbia, when the first pipeline was proposed and the first tankers were then considered on the north coast, realizing the particular and tricky nature of sailing a supertanker through the Douglas Channel. The minister and I have spoken a lot about that.

I'm wondering about a couple of things. I'll also give credit to the government for introducing the bill. My credit mostly rests with the people who, in some cases, spent the last 40 years struggling for this. Does the precautionary principle rest within this legislation in any formal or informal way?

[Natasha Rascanin]

The approach to the schedule to the act was based on the precautionary principle, and certainly encompasses a range of petroleum products that are at the heavier end.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

When we were going through the National Energy Board hearings around northern gateway, which was the example that was most discussed—whether there should be a tanker ban now—one of the challenges that people had in the northwest, in the area I represent, was in trying to establish the qualities of the products proposed to be moving through the pipeline. Diluted bitumen was a relatively recent actor on the stage within the Canadian petroleum industry as a large mover of volume.

When we were questioning federal officials, both from your department and from the fisheries department, as to the nature of diluted bitumen and how much was understood about how it reacted in fresh water, salt water, did it sink, did it float...? These are of course incredibly important things to know when trying to determine how you would clean something up if there were ever a spill, especially for a place like the northwest of British Columbia where the value of the rivers, the ocean, is paramount—culturally, economically, socially.

Do we now have established evidence within the department as to the qualities of bitumen, how it weathers over time, and what is recoverable in the event of a spill either in fresh water or salt water?

[Natasha Rascanin]

This is an area that is not under the purview of the Department of Transport. It is our colleagues in Natural Resources and in Environment Canada who do some of this.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

How do you then apply that precautionary principle, I guess is my question, as to what to list and what not to list? Does it come from Natural Resources, and have they provided testing to you to establish the parameters of cleanup and viability when considering something like a tanker ban?

[Natasha Rascanin]

We work very closely with our colleagues. We also relied very heavily, importantly, on international standards under the various international elements. Also, under the oceans protection plan, there are investments into ongoing research in this area.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess that's what I'm seeking right now. Your department, the Department of Transport, is handling this bill. You're relying on those other agencies and evidence.

Do you have evidence that you can give to the committee, upon which you relied, to establish the parameters of this tanker ban with regard to products that can and cannot be shipped?

[Natasha Rascanin]

In terms of evidence, it was an analysis of the types of products looking at internationally based definitions and science-based definitions on which ones are the heaviest and most persistent—all the current knowledge scientifically. Those are the ones that are listed on the schedule.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll stop here, Chair, but on that, are we now with the confirmed knowledge that when something like diluted bitumen, as it's currently composed, presents itself to a salt or ocean water environment, it in fact sinks rather than floats? Do we know that?

[Natasha Rascanin]

I'm not able to answer that question directly myself.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Would you be able to provide the committee with any information the department has if you don't have it available right now?

[Natasha Rascanin]

We do actually have some NRCan folks here.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not sure how to proceed, Chair, because I know with limited time...if we want to call forward NRCan officials.

Let's put it this way. If we can endeavour to get a commitment from your department to provide that information from National Resources Canada, that would help us greatly—

[Natasha Rascanin]

We will work with our colleagues.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—just in knowing how it is the department goes around making the determinations that you do when setting out a tanker ban here or in any legislation.

[Natasha Rascanin]

Sure. We will follow up with that.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

I don't know if there's any time. I'm sorry to my colleagues.