Evidence of meeting #77 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was product.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nancy Bérard-Brown  Manager, Oil Markets and Transportation, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Chris Bloomer  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association
Derek Corrigan  Mayor, City of Burnaby
Ben Isitt  Councillor, City of Victoria
Janet Drysdale  Vice-President, Corporate Development and Sustainability, Canadian National Railway Company
Kathryn Moran  President and Chief Executive Officer, Ocean Networks Canada
Scott Wright  Director, Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation
Greg D'Avignon  President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Council of British Columbia
Ross Chow  Managing Director, InnoTech Alberta

4:55 p.m.

Greg D'Avignon President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Council of British Columbia

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, standing committee, for the invitation to present today.

My name is Greg D'Avignon, and I am the CEO of the Business Council of British Columbia. We are in our 51st year. We are an organization of 260 firms that have assets and operations in the province, including leading firms in every sector of the economy, including our post-secondary institutions.

My comments today are really reflective of two key areas. One is related to the context of global and domestic energy demand and innovation and the role that Canada can play in meeting our obligations from an environmental and marine protection perspective. The other has to do with seizing the opportunity to export Canadian products to the benefit of the economy and the peoples of British Columbia and Canada.

These objectives were articulated in a submission in September 2016, but they bear repeating for the committee today. As the committee is aware, the International Energy Agency in its latest report showed that the global demand for hydrocarbons continues to grow and is projected to grow by one-third until 2040. Energy demand will be satisfied by a global mix of energy products, including renewables, but for decades to come it will involve primarily energy sources based on fossil fuels.

Canada, in our view, can choose to shut itself off from this demand and these market realities and forgo the benefits, including investment, taxes, jobs, and innovation that flow from our energy sector, which comprises today 10% of our GDP and most recently up to 25% of the capital investment in Canada as a whole, or we can choose to participate by contributing lower-greenhouse-intensive oil and natural gas products based on our baseline approach and innovations, as you heard about a moment ago, and drive change globally through a Canadian impact.

This is a unique proposition, particularly in British Columbia where we have the ability and today are integrating electrification in the upstream and downstream natural gas and oil production. These efforts are reducing by as much as half the carbon intensity of a barrel of oil, compared with the average in the U.S. The irony is that Canada today imports over 400,000 barrels of U.S. oil, while landlocking our Canadian product.

Canada's high environmental standards play a role in this, and Bill C-48 helps to strengthen it. Frankly, however, we have concerns with respect to our ability as the fourth-largest oil producer in the world, and given the innovations in electrification taking place in the market, to actually take advantage of the opportunities we have. The legislation in its persistence levels and schedule preclude both the innovations around the CanaPux, which we heard about earlier, and the opportunities that will arise out of natural gas production, which will include the production of light tight oil, condensate, and methane.

The British Columbia Business Council's concern is that the public narrative has not actually captured the voices of all indigenous peoples either. While many indigenous communities have the right to oppose the ability to ship, particularly diluted bitumen, from their traditional territories, the committee has heard from a great number who would like to seize those opportunities in environmental, traditional, and sustainable manners. This includes the supply chain through British Columbia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan.

Ironically, the oil industry and the energy sector in Canada is among the highest employers of indigenous peoples, creating self-determination, financial independence, and jobs for the future of those communities.

The opportunity for us in Canada is to seize these markets, to build on our innovation, to drive down the carbon intensity of our products, and, most importantly, to make sure that we create economic and cultural opportunities for all Canadians through the energy abundance we enjoy in Canada.

I'll conclude with some suggestions. While we are not in support of Bill C-48, we recognize the government's interest in moving forward with the legislation. Therefore, we would suggest the following. First, despite our views on the potential negative and unintended consequences of the legislation, permitting the export of products of less concern and less persistence than diluted bitumen through our northern deepwater ports must be recognized. Initially, the conversation on this legislation started around diluted bitumen, and, unfortunately, it has captured a much broader array of products and opportunities than was originally envisaged.

Second, reviews within the next 12 months of the legislation being passed and seeking royal assent should focus on the persistence level of products aimed at increasing the precision of in-out definitions, particularly given the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association's independent study on this topic, which is targeted for completion in 2018.

Third, the technology developments and other response capabilities should be reviewed within 24 months of royal assent of the legislation, particularly through the oceans protection plan and some innovations we heard about earlier, such as the CanaPux, to see whether the legislation continues to remain relevant.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you, Mr. D'Avignon. Can we get your last point into one of our members' questions and answers?

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Council of British Columbia

Greg D'Avignon

Certainly.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We'll move on to Mr. Chong.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If you will permit, I'd like to split my time with Madam Block. I have a comment. I don't have a question.

My comment concerns the international aspect of this bill, which I don't think any of our witnesses have talked about, so I want to put this on the record. Bill C-48 concerns boundary waters for which we are in dispute with the United States. It involves the disputed waters around the Alaska Panhandle and also the waters around the Dixon Entrance, as well as issues concerning innocent passage, freedom of navigation, and the like.

The United States is not a party to UNCLOS, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, and it's also a global maritime policing power, through the U.S. Navy, that has always been very clear about its determination to protect flag rights. Since the 1890s Canada has claimed these waters, both Dixon Entrance and Hecate Strait, believing they're internal to Canada. That's a position I support, but the U.S. doesn't recognize our sovereignty here.

As I understand it, the Government of Canada's foreign policy priority right now is protecting NAFTA, and I believe the Government of Canada should have a whole-of-government approach in ensuring that every resource of the Government of Canada is used to fighting for and protecting NAFTA, which is so vital to the approximately one-fifth of the Canadian economy that relies on trade exports to the United States. One of the things I have a concern about with this legislation is that it potentially will provoke the Trump administration while at the same time we're trying to get their attention and their support for the protection of Canadian jobs and Canadian interests in NAFTA. In that context, I think it's important for us, as members of Parliament, to put this on the record.

I think this is not well timed, and I don't believe it fits into what I believe should be a whole-of-government strategy to focusing every aspect, every department, every minister, and every part of the Government of Canada on the single biggest need, which is to protect our interests in NAFTA and to ensure that we can convince the Trump administration to come around to our point of view.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you.

I'm trying to give everybody only five minutes, so we can get as many questions as possible out there. Two minutes remain.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Ms. Drysdale, I'm very interested in this new technology, this new product that has been worked on. It was discussed in a media report that CN was in talks with Transport Canada for an exemption from the oil tanker moratorium for CanaPux.

How far have these discussions advanced and what proof of concept has been required from Transport Canada?

5:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Development and Sustainability, Canadian National Railway Company

Janet Drysdale

We have not requested an exemption. Our understanding, from the proposed legislation, is that this product would be excluded from the legislation.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay, thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Hardie, you have five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I asked CN to be here because the CanaPux program seemed to be fascinating and perhaps to give Mr. Chow an opportunity to speak to this. Obviously, commercial viability is going to be crucial. What timeline do you have in mind to bring this process to the point where it makes the whole conversation we're having here moot?

5:05 p.m.

Ross Chow Managing Director, InnoTech Alberta

We're working very closely with our partners at CN, and in terms of technology development, this one is moving quite quickly. We're ready to put the pilot together sometime next year. I think after the pilot, we're going to be moving that into the demonstration phase, so you're probably looking at a two-year development timeline before we look at a commercial application or a commercial trial of this particular technology.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Are there other technologies? Are you aware of any other technologies that are also being examined here?

5:05 p.m.

Managing Director, InnoTech Alberta

Ross Chow

As a first part of a study that we did with CN, we reviewed all the current solidification technologies for bitumen, and actually none of them met all the requirements for solid transport. A large part of that had to do with the strength required to take the handling in freighters and then the loading into rail cars.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I want to “lift the green curtain” a little bit here, if I can use that analogy.

Mr. D'Avignon, we talk about reducing the carbon intensity of products that we have some control over. However, if we're shipping any of this stuff offshore, be it CanaPux, or diluted bitumen, or anything else, it's going to end up being processed and used somewhere else in the world where we don't necessarily have any say at all over the standards that they apply and the emissions that they put out.

Do we not actually have to take more of a global responsibility for the use of our product?

5:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Council of British Columbia

Greg D'Avignon

Mr. Hardie, I think that's a good question.

I think in the prescribed five minutes, we would tend to glaze over some of the complexities of the question you just asked. In British Columbia, as you might be aware, and certainly in Alberta, because of the plentiful supply of electricity that is based on renewable provision through B.C. Hydro, we're seeing electrification of the upstream extraction of natural gas and light tight oil. In the case of liquid natural gas, which isn't covered under the bill, we're also seeing the electrification potential for downstream movement of the products, as well.

The consequence of electrification in the domestic extraction is that its carbon intensity is half of that of the average U.S. barrel. Within Canada's borders, we're already a 50% lower carbon contributor to the global supply chain moving forward.

I can't speak to your point on offshore refining costs. However, the reality is that, in the case of British Columbia, where the Government of Canada has supported the LNG industry through both environmental assessment approvals and offtake approvals, with that technology we have the potential for up to a million barrels of light tight oil and condensate a year, which requires very little refining and which would have no market off the north coast.

Moreover, what you would find, despite the protections that we're investing in the oceans protection plan and the investments we've made in infrastructure, Prince Rupert on the north coast, is a day to three days closer to the markets with the highest demand moving forward. That in itself in the supply chain also reduces transportation GHG emissions as well as costs and the impacts on the environment.

I have every confidence in the ability of marine tanker safety moving forward, but within the walls of Canada, we already have the ability with technology today, let alone tomorrow, to reduce our carbon footprint and to make a bigger global impact on GHG reductions.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Cullen.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I'll start with Mr. Wright.

I still think of you as Burrard Clean, but I believe it was you folks from Western Canada Marine Response Corporation who did the Nathan E. Stewartcleanup. Is that right?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation

Scott Wright

That's correct.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

How easy was that cleanup on a scale of one to ten? It wasn't a particularly large spill in global terms. Is that fair to say?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation

Scott Wright

The spill from the Nathan E. Stewart was refined product. It was in a coastal, nearshore environment. During that response, we did not see recoverable oil coming from the vessel. We did take on strategies to protect certain sensitivities around the casualty site, so that was basically the strategy that we undertook during that response.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Just in terms of scale, in terms of global spills—I know your company works around the world—would that be seen as a major, medium, or minor-sized spill?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation

Scott Wright

As I pointed out, it was a significant quantity at risk. The oil on the water was non-recoverable. It was a significant response.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I have put this question to the government and to other witnesses. As we contemplate these tanker bans and how to manage the risk versus reward for the government—and just parenthetically to Mr. Chong, I'm not entirely sure what provokes Mr. Trump from day to day, and I don't think anybody necessarily does, including Mr. Trump, it seems—the link into NAFTA is an interesting stretch.

The question I have around this bill and your company—because you're the experts—is that we're trying to find out from industry and from the government the very nature of the product that we're talking about in water, whether a saltwater or a freshwater environment, because one contemplates both, of course, with regared to a proposal like Kinder Morgan or Northern Gateway.

Do you have any science you can provide to the committee as to what happens to diluted bitumen once it enters the marine or river environment?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation

Scott Wright

We have experience with a product very similar to diluted bitumen, synthetic Albian crude, which we responded to in 2007. During that response we saw oil on water for a number of days. That oil behaved exactly as do conventional crude oils, as well as bunker, which is commonly in and around the marine environment. It didn't present any unique challenges.