Transport Committee on Nov. 7th, 2017

[Grand Chief Stewart Phillip]

It's through consensus, as much as we can. Ultimately, the authority of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs is in the chiefs and the assembly through the passage of formal resolutions that represent the mandate that I as the president and our executive are obligated to follow.

We work very closely with our member communities and ensure that we're onside with respect to their issues and their world view. But again, this business, the very important business of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, is not abstract notions. Governments need to seriously commit to the words it entails in order to have a better system of governance and decision-making. Certainly, the Supreme Court of Canada has offered its view on a number of occasions with respect to shared decision-making.

We need to roll up our sleeves and get this work done and move towards legislative reform and policy development in order to have a better system that works for all of the parties.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks very much to each of you. That's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We go now to Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll probably be splitting my time with Mr. Donnelly who has smarter and better questions than I do.

Grand Chief Stewart Phillip and Mr. Hill, it's good to see you. I hope your families are well.

Let me start with you, Mr. Hill. In Gitga'at territory there has been some conversation with some of your neighbours about the exemptions that exist within this bill and some concerns that have been raised. There has also been the suggestion that if we could implement this tanker ban in such a way that first nations would play a joint decision-making role, a joint implementation role with the federal government.... Words like reconciliation are thrown around a lot in this town. Do you think this would be a helpful aspect if the committee changed Bill C-48 to allow for that, to imagine that, to give first nations a seat at the table in implementing the tanker ban in a meaningful way?

[Cameron Hill]

I think that would definitely be a start. When you talk about having meaningful consultation and having our voices heard, I always try to put things into layman's terms, and my way to get across my point is to use examples.

If I could use this as an example, very quickly, there are no weather beacons between Holland Rock and Nanakwa Shoal. We're talking from the very top of Grenville Channel to the very top of Douglas Channel, and all we've asked for a number of years is to be able to have a weather beacon somewhere in between. It has never happened, not to this day, even though we've had people at the table expressing our concerns.

That might seem miniscule to the people I'm talking to right now, but to our nation, who are trying to travel back and forth to urban settings, it's a huge factor when we have a four-hour to eight-hour boat ride and our voices aren't being heard for something as simple as that. If I had a guarantee that the person we were going to put at that table, to make our voices heard, were actually going to be heard, I think it would be a very positive step forward.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I've been on that coast and know that having a gap in weather knowledge and awareness, I would argue, is a life-and-death type of situation.

After the Queen sank, Hartley Bay was called “heroes of the coast” and there was a lot of attention, a lot of media, and a lot of politicians. What has the response been like in terms of dealing with that sunken ship, in terms of the impact on the Gitga'at people? You've called for remediation and help with the fuel spill. What was the response like once the lights died down and the cameras went away?

[Cameron Hill]

It has been horrific, Nathan. Our voices are not being heard.

We still have burps and bubbles coming out of both of the ships that are sunken within our territory. I still have families within my community who have still not gone to harvest in the immediate area, and that is a loss of our language, our culture, and identity of who the Gitga'at people are, because we're not even able to go to our traditional areas to teach our future generations how to harvest properly, how to feed our families. As you can tell, I'm visibly getting upset about it again, because it is truly a recurring theme, again, that our voices are just not being heard.

We were told in no uncertain terms when the Queen went down that, at the very least, we have the technology in this world to suck up all of the diesel fuel and all of the contaminants from that ship, if not to lift the ship and get it out of our territory. To this day, more than 10 years later, we're still going out there and seeing the sheen of the diesel fuel and every other contaminant that was on that ship, still bubbling up to the surface. What does that mean to our people in the next 10 years? What illnesses will we be contracting? It's extremely frustrating, and that's why I'm cautious when I say that I hope our voices will be heard.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Hill, and my best to your family.

I'll pass my remaining time over to Fin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have one minute.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Nathan.

Grand Chief Stewart Phillip, you mentioned Kinder Morgan in your testimony and the inconsistency with this proposed legislation and a gap in the south coast. I'm wondering if you could quickly elaborate on that.

[Grand Chief Stewart Phillip]

I indicated in my previous remarks about the long ongoing battle to protect our communities from, as I described it, predations of the fossil fuel industry vis-à-vis pipeline ruptures and tanker spills. That's why we so readily supported Bill C-48 offering that measure of protection to the northern communities, but it's a no-brainer that there's a denser population along the south coast. The Juan de Fuca Strait, the Burrard Inlet, and the Fraser River Estuary, and certainly all of the people, deserve a similar measure of protection.

The thought of moving tankers through Burrard Inlet that is incredibly heavily congested just doesn't make any sense. We're expected to undertake all the risks for very little benefit, if any at all. The governments have to be willing to take on the responsibilities for making these hard decisions. That's why the vast majority of British Columbians are opposed to these heavy oil projects and the risks attached to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We will move on to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first questions will be for Mr. Hill, and the first thing I want to do is say how much I'm enjoying the piece of artwork that's sitting behind you. That is just beautiful.

[Cameron Hill]

Thank you.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have three quick questions that are right at sea level. We've heard a little bit of angst about the use of articulated tug/barge combos out on the water. Have you any comments or reflections on that from the Gitga'at?

[Cameron Hill]

If you take a look at what just happened to our neighbours in the south in the Heiltsuk Nation, I don't think I can add anything more to that.

Is the tanker moratorium going to provide loopholes for vessels such as that to equip themselves with even bigger barges? I think 10 or 20 years ago that was thought of as a very safe means of transportation, but to be human is to err, and that's exactly what happened in the Heiltsuk territory and we definitely have some concerns about that. Obviously, we'll uphold our concerns.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What about pilotage requirements?

[Cameron Hill]

That's also a huge concern. I know the rigours of the pilotage authority in British Columbia. The Gitga'at people are very well versed in the territory that we live in. We need to go down that road of making sure that when travelling through the different territories of the B.C. coast, which are so vast, we need to have the best pilots from B.C. and from Canada on those boats, especially when you're talking about the amount of tonnage of the fuel they are carrying in those tankers or those barges.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What about MCTS out of Prince Rupert? You mentioned problems with the lack of weather beacons. Are you getting the kind of coverage and reporting there that is required to keep everybody safe?

[Cameron Hill]

In my mind, no. When I'm going to travel to Prince Rupert and my only beacon to check on is directly right outside of Port Edward, which is right in conjunction to Prince Rupert, we're talking 80 miles away. And believe you me, the weather patterns that I have in Hartley Bay compared to Prince Rupert change hourly. When I'm making that trek up there, I'm very cognizant of the weather and I've been brought up to understand what to look for. I'm talking about a 90-mile span here. I can imagine how hard it would be for pilots to gauge the entire coast of British Columbia.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Grand Chief Stewart, you mentioned that you're troubled by the provision for ministerial exemptions. I wanted you to comment on something we heard from the previous witnesses who suggested they too had concerns, but their thought was that perhaps there could be, if you like, a co-decision process on exemptions that would involve consultation or input from first nations before an exemption was granted.

Have you any thoughts about that?

[Grand Chief Stewart Phillip]

I have just another comment on this whole business of consultation. The world has moved on vis-à-vis the Tsilhqot'in decision. We're moving into an era of consent as opposed to mere consultation.

The whole business of joint decision-making is something that has been completely ignored by not only industry but by senior levels of government. It's become more of a reality, more of a practice in order to make better decisions that will protect the interests of all people. I think that once we cross that bridge we'll wonder why it took so long for us to do that.

Certainly the indigenous people themselves, as Mr. Hill has demonstrated, have lived along the coast for hundreds if not thousands of years and know the waters and the waterways intimately. Why wouldn't we be called on to provide that traditional and ecological knowledge to make better resource management decisions? It should have happened decades ago, but obviously it hasn't and we need to catch up with the UN declaration, the Supreme Court decisions, and get on with it.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Chief Stewart, I have one last quick question. We've been talking an awful lot about discussions with and between first nations groups, but there are also a significant number of non-indigenous and non-first-nation fishers in that part of the world. To what extent has your group discussed with them their concerns about this bill or any other measure that's going to affect that area?

[Grand Chief Stewart Phillip]

I have been involved in these issues now for pretty much 43 years, and I have never in all of that time seen greater solidarity between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples vis-à-vis all of these issues: heavy oil pipelines, tanker traffic, oil spills, protecting the environment, global warming, and climate change. As well, there is an emerging public concern—when we witness the impacts and the irrefutable evidence of climate change with respect to wildfires, flooding events, and so on and so forth—that we need to elect governments that are going to begin to act and respond to these issues, and again it goes to the question of consultation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We move on to Mr. Badawey.