Transport Committee on Nov. 9th, 2017

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Am I to understand that it will be up to the board of directors, and not the minister, to put in place measures to prevent people from doing business with companies that use tax havens?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

The bank will table its operational plan annually in the Parliament. It is also accountable to the Parliament through reporting. There's accountability built into the structure, such that everything the bank undertakes can be scrutinized by the Parliament.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

On another note, government documents have shown that members of BlackRock, the largest asset manager in the world, have worked closely with the federal government to build this infrastructure bank.

My question has two parts. Will BlackRock be allowed to bid on projects that would be managed by the Canada Infrastructure Bank? If so, isn't there at the very least an appearance of a conflict of interest?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you once again for that question.

In the lead-up to setting up the Canada infrastructure bank, we consulted a wide range of stakeholders. We consulted unions, pension funds, the provinces, municipalities, the World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund. Our consultations were very large and very wide-ranging.

As for which company can do business or which pension funds can bid on projects or work with the bank, that decision will be made by the experts at the Canada infrastructure bank. We will not give any preference to any organization or pension fund. It will be done in such a way that we are getting the best value for Canadian dollars and building the infrastructure that is needed by our communities.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

The most recent report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer quite clearly showed that 70% of the funds allocated to this program, which you described as historic in your preliminary remarks, were still not allocated.

In your opening remarks, you also said that you are proud to have approved 4,000 projects, but these projects are not necessarily under construction at this time. There's a difference between the amounts granted and the amounts that are really used.

Since the Parliamentary Budget Officer tabled his report, has that 70% gone down? That would mean that more projects had been accepted.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you so much.

As I said earlier, the way in which infrastructure commitments are met is that we approve projects and attach the funding to that particular project, and then, once the project is complete, we pay out the invoices. We always have to wait. This is a choice that our proponents make. They can send us invoices earlier and we can pay their money out earlier, but it is easier for them to wait until the project is completed. That's why you see this gap between project approval and the flow of funds.

What I can tell you is that, based on the information that has been given to us by provinces and municipalities, out of the 4,000 projects we have approved, the vast majority are under way. I gave you the example of close to 1,600 buses that are being bought. They are being bought because of federal dollars committed to those buses, right?

I also talked about thousands of the water and waste-water projects—

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Right, but has the 70% rate changed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Aubin. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Sohi.

We'll move on to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to Minister Sohi and his staff.

I want to focus on transit, which is a favourite subject of mine. I've been working in that sector, as in fact has Minister Sohi.

I want to start not so much with the big city transit, but in fact quite the opposite. We've heard a few times of the difficulties and dangers involved with the absence or growing absence of intercity transit services, up north especially, in remote areas. I know that in British Columbia, along the Yellowhead highway, which is also called the “Highway of Tears”, it's an issue not just of mobility but of safety, especially for first nations women. Has there been any thought of...or, more particularly, have there been any submissions for infrastructure funding to establish and operate that kind of service?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you so much for asking that question, because accessibility is very important. In the situation you have described, we just can't imagine the pain and heartache of those women and girls who didn't have access to transportation and got into these very difficult circumstances.

The federal government under Infrastructure Canada does not fund intercity bus service because that is based on a commercial arrangement. Companies such as Greyhound are responsible for providing that service, but we encourage buses and we do consultations with indigenous and rural communities.

What I can share with you is that the investment we're making in transportation networks within the cities and in helping provinces with municipal infrastructure and municipal public transit systems is freeing up resources for provinces to look at creative ways of providing intercity transportation systems.

In the case of British Columbia, I understand that BC Transit was able to expand its service to link rural communities because of the resources we made available to them within the city service. That freed up resources that they were able to use to provide service into areas in which we don't have an area of responsibility.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Another area has to do with commuter rail. I'm thinking specifically of some of our major corridors, which also, of course, have to carry trade. In British Columbia, we're certainly looking at growth in trade, which is obviously a very good thing, but also a growing demand for commuter rail services, and one may choke out the other. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, trade will win, which would be a huge barrier to the growth of commuter rail in a large and spread-out area like metro Vancouver.

Have you and the transportation minister been talking about some approach that could make both things happen?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, I know that Minister Garneau is working with Via Rail on that particular area within his department. He will be able to give you a more fulsome answer about what steps are being taken.

Where we see the potential for expansion of rail service or intermunicipal and interprovincial public transportation service is in the possibility that provinces and municipalities can identify projects to be looked at through the Canada infrastructure bank. I think we see potential in that, or in cities and provinces working together to expand that service. We are always open for discussions with them about how Infrastructure Canada, Transport Canada, provinces, and municipalities can work together to expand options for mobility choices for people.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

With respect to bus procurement, have there been discussions with the municipal authorities about ensuring that the buses they buy are low-floor ones and accessible to people with disabilities, and that there's some sharing of available funding toward custom transit? There is an aging population and a need for access to that kind of service, especially as we ask seniors to age in place but still access the services they need.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Yes. As I said earlier in my remarks, the number of accessibility transit projects that we have funded in the phase one investment speaks to the commitment of the provinces and municipalities to making sure that the transit fleet is accessible. They're buying low-floor buses and buying electric buses. Maybe they're buying community buses that go into smaller communities.

They are also buying buses that are accessible to wheelchairs; they have wheelchair ramps. Paratransit buses are also being included in the fleet.

We're seeing great improvements in improving accessibility for communities. This is something that we are absolutely passionate about as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I want to thank you so much for being here, Minister, and we actually have a natural segue on the issue of small community transit.

First and foremost, I think there was a lot of fear around the initial plan to invest in infrastructure, because a lot of people back home, in the small communities I represent, feared that big cities were going to be a sponge when it comes to infrastructure money. I was extraordinarily pleased to see specific money set aside for small communities in the $2-billion rural and remote community fund when you announced phase two.

One of the struggles we have is that a key part of my riding depends not on municipally owned public transit, but instead on non-profit groups that have community transit initiatives. These are funded by municipalities, but not owned by municipalities, so they don't qualify for the public transit funding.

Would projects like this potentially be eligible under the small communities fund so we can get people moving and help seniors, people living in poverty, and people living with disabilities?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, we are very proud to be establishing this dedicated funding of $2 billion for rural communities. This is the largest investment in rural and northern small communities that we have seen in recent history. Having said that, those rural communities still qualify for funding under other funding streams, so they can get support on that.

On localized areas and the non-profits, I'm going to ask my staff to comment on that.

Marc.

[Dr. Marc Fortin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Program Operations, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Thanks for your question.

For those kinds of projects, there are many other opportunities in terms of funding. There's a gas tax that municipalities can use, and there's the small community fund itself, but for the big transit ones, we are talking about different categories.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not thinking about the public transit fund. I'm thinking about the rural and remote communities infrastructure fund. Will there be flexibility in the negotiations with provinces if they say that a priority for them is to support a different kind of infrastructure that may not be typical in other provinces, such as community transit? Would that be a subject of negotiation?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

We would have to see the type of project that we're talking about and the ownership and that kind of stuff. That needs to be looked at.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Okay.

I have another question on small communities. Your parliamentary secretary will be familiar with one of the great struggles that I have in a community named Moser River, where his father was born. It falls within a very rural area of a large urban municipality.

The Halifax Regional Municipality has hundreds of thousands of people in it, but there are certain communities that have hundreds or, potentially, a couple of thousand people. There's a struggle here, because there are real communities with maybe 400, 1,000, or 2,000 people and they'll have a hospital, but they may not qualify for this small community fund. Is this a problem that you would be willing to sit down and work through with me in order to talk about how they might access funding that's designed for small communities, but that due to an odd municipal arrangement they currently wouldn't be eligible for?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you for the question. The current definition in the Building Canada fund of a “small” community is a community that has a population of less than 100,000. Smaller provinces have only a number of communities that are larger than that.

What we want to do is sit down with the provinces and really understand how they see a small community, how they define a rural community, and create that flexibility for every province to see what role the federal government can play in supporting those communities. We are not going to be defining from a federal perspective what a small community should look like. I think that cookie cutter approach is not really effective and has not worked. We're going to sit down and we'll be flexible in finding more appropriate ways of supporting those rural, northern, and small communities.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you. Just before I ask my next question, I just want to say that I sincerely appreciate that. Right now, there are federal programs designed for rural communities that benefit communities 10 times the size of some I represent, which can't access the same ones. I do appreciate your comments.

Finally, if I have time, Madam Chair, the timing of the agreements with the provinces around phase two could present a challenge. Some, such as the warden of Antigonish County, for example, raised this with me. If we roll out programs that don't kick in until the summer, it can be more expensive to fund projects, because the contractors are all busy.

I understand that you're negotiating these things quite soon, and if we can get a deal in the winter, say, when things are slower, this might enable small communities to build one extra project. What's the rough timeline of the infrastructure agreements so that we might be able to take advantage of this cycle?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Yes. Phase one investments are being made now, and for the long-term plan we have started negotiations. Our goal will be to conclude those negotiations by the first quarter of next year. Please keep in mind that this is a 10-year plan. I think it will be better for provinces and municipalities to know how much money they're going to get so that they can start planning. There's no pressure such as you are describing. That pressure is there just when there's short-term funding available. With a long-term, consistent approach, those pressures may not be as prevalent.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That's excellent. Thank you.