Evidence of meeting #91 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vessel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Council-Chief Administrative Officer, Town of Shelburne
We could comment, but David could go first.
I'm sorry. We're not there, so we can't pick up on where everybody is.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
No problem.
Mr. Heide or Mayor Mattatall, go ahead. You go first. Then we'll hear from Mr. Mitchell.
5:05 p.m.
Council-Chief Administrative Officer, Town of Shelburne
I'm sorry to jump in there, Mayor Mitchell.
Just quickly, as I've said, we've had a number of derelicts. We've had the misfortune of having to deal directly with the owners—if they can be found—and certainly a profile does develop. Without intentionally maligning anyone, the majority of derelict vessel owners have ended up in prison fairly quickly after their vessels arrived in the harbour, including one who was imprisoned overseas.
Generally, they are people who do not have the means to effect removal. A part of the pattern of disposal can seem to be to offload the costs associated with the vessel if the price of steel has fallen or they otherwise see themselves as not being able to afford to dispose of it. Abandoning it in the harbour has become a common means of disposal for people at that point.
5:10 p.m.
Mayor, Town of Bridgewater
For us it's the wharf owner that would be the issue. All the ships that have come up, they've brought up. In the Cormorant's case they sold it. Now the ownership is being disputed. The person who the wharf owner says he sold it to is saying, “I didn't buy that boat.” They're dealing with that in provincial court. All these ships were brought up and allowed to park at the wharf by the wharf owner.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
One would be tempted to make suggestions of things like bonding or whatever before ships are allowed to locate themselves, but I'll park that.
Are there any powers or permissions your municipalities or the port authority would like to see, perhaps in regulation, that would give you a bit more clout to deal with these issues on a local basis?
5:10 p.m.
Mayor, Town of Bridgewater
Taxation would probably be one, but again, I think that's a provincial matter. For us, at the docks that we own, you can't park your vessel overnight for more than a certain number of days without our permission. We don't have that kind of jurisdiction.... It would be nice—and maybe it's just a dream—for municipalities, when there's a boat over a certain size that would affect us, to have the right to refuse it up the waterway.
We don't own the waterway—it's federal—but if we were the port authority, for example, and we were allowed to say, “this ship cannot pass through these waters”, that would probably be the strongest tool we could use against allowing these ships to come up in the future.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
In the time remaining, Mayor Mattatall or Mr. Heide, please.
5:10 p.m.
Council-Chief Administrative Officer, Town of Shelburne
Yes, I have just a quick comment on that. We have refused vessels in the past, but at the end of the day, you would have to physically obstruct access. Without 24-7 security and the means to physically obstruct access, derelicts like the Farley Mowat have arrived under cover of darkness and without any permission. Although there are facility owners that do grant permission, there are also facility owners that have not granted permission and are still victimized by the vessels.
I think any means to essentially consider a vessel to be actionable as a wreck from the moment it has been found.... We have been clear that the Farley Mowat for three years was in danger of sinking. Hopefully, the clause in this legislation referring to a ship that is about to or “may reasonably be expected to” sink or to strand can be interpreted to the benefit of a community like ours, where we understood that the vessel would sink.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Mr. Heide. I'm sorry. My apologies, but I have to cut you off.
Mr. Chong, for five minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My first question is for the towns of Bridgewater and Shelburne. You've highlighted some of the challenges you've had with these abandoned and derelict vessels. You have mentioned vessels like the Cormorant and the Fraser, which are quite large, probably well in excess of the 300-tonne cut-off the legislation has for requiring insurance.
Are these generally in your two communities the vessels that are the problem, the vessels of that size, like that of the Fraser and the Cormorant, or do you also have problems with abandoned or derelict dilapidated vessels that are quite a bit smaller than that?
5:10 p.m.
Mayor, Town of Bridgewater
For Bridgewater, the two big ones were the Fraser and, currently, the Cormorant. Behind that sit very large fishing trawlers, still quite large, but under the 300-gross-tonnage limit.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Mayor, Town of Bridgewater
It would be, but our biggest problem for sure is the two large ones that came up.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Mayor, Town of Shelburne
It certainly is. We have had vessels of all sizes as well.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
The next question I have is for Mr. Wellstood at the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority.
You mentioned that you'd identified derelict or dilapidated and abandoned vessels in the Fraser River. How did you define what constituted a dilapidated or abandoned vessel? How did you go about identifying those 150 or so boats that you identified as abandoned or dilapidated? How did you go about assessing that?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Marine Operations and Security, Harbour Master, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
If I would have the ability to show you the pictures, you would agree how the assessment would have been done. We're talking about vessels that are half sunk, submerged. Really, you don't have to be an expert to see that these vessels are—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
So it's just by visual inspections: clearly they were dilapidated and a problem.
5:15 p.m.
Director, Marine Operations and Security, Harbour Master, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
Yes.
First it's a visual inspection, and then tracking down ownership, and then seeing if it is utilized or not.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Did you include in that grouping of identified vessels, abandoned vessels that may not have been dilapidated?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Marine Operations and Security, Harbour Master, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
Well, they usually go hand in hand. Vessels that are in good shape are usually not abandoned.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Now you had mentioned that you cleaned up about 140 or so abandoned and dilapidated vessels.
Is that roughly the number?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Marine Operations and Security, Harbour Master, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
Basically.