Transport Committee on March 26th, 2018

[David Ticoll]

The most interesting point about what you said is that we're moving to a different dynamic in the use of transportation. On the one hand, people are getting more deliveries to their homes; they're not going out shopping anymore. On the other hand, there's this tension between people who want to drive their own cars and people who are quite happy to use an on-demand vehicle as a kind of automated taxi arrangement. I believe the commitment to driving one's own car is a generational thing. I think that eventually those of us who like to drive will probably end up being in the minority. It won't be taken away from us; we'll just evolve away from it.

The fundamental point that underlies what you're saying is that yes, we do need to redesign our streets, and in particular our curbs. If we're going to be picking up and dropping off passengers and picking up and dropping off all our groceries and other things—and who knows, using mobile stores—then we do need to rethink our streets, which again is why I believe we need an all-of-government approach.

[Ian Jack]

Sure, and for the record, CAA will never recommend taking people's cars away from them.

At the same time, I do agree with my colleague David. Certainly the surveys that we see suggest that the younger you are, the less attached you are to driving and to a vehicle, and the more utilitarian you see it to be. That's not 100% of the population, but it is coming.

Again, we're looking at a fairly long time horizon here. This is not coming in 2021. It's coming a bit later than that, in terms of mass adoption of these things.

I would take a page from something somebody said on this side of the table, which was that the technology is coming. A point I made earlier is that this is likely.... It's evolutionary as much as it is revolutionary. If you have lane assist, if you have a vehicle that brakes for you if you're getting too close to the vehicle ahead of you, you already have a vehicle that is moving towards autonomy. I think most of us—generation by generation of vehicle over the next five to 10 to whatever years—are simply going to go from being 5% or 10% to 20% to 50% to 75% autonomous before we even realize it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Jeneroux, for four minutes, or five. See what you can squeeze through.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Sure. We'll see if we can push it to five, Madam Chair.

I want to preface my comments by first saying that I am personally very excited about the future of autonomous vehicles and I think it's something that most Canadians are excited about, but with the caveat of knowing that there are issues that happen. I make reference to the issue that happened in Arizona.

I was talking with some of the folks within the AI realm. I'm from Edmonton, Alberta, where there's significant AI development happening at the University of Alberta in terms of finding areas to test the autonomous vehicles there in what we won't refer to as Nevada weather but as different types of weather. Still, when one of those incidents like the Arizona incident happens, there is always a kind of pullback to ask what we do now and to say that it's moving too fast.

In your opinion, have certain companies and organizations jumped and moved too fast? You've mentioned that government is really slow here, but these things are still happening. I don't think it's within the government's purview to go in and say not to worry about it, that it won't happen here, that it shouldn't happen in downtown Toronto. Toronto has pulled its vehicles off the road.

I'll give you an opportunity to give some comfort to those Canadians who are thinking that when these isolated instances happen, they represent a bigger systemic problem in artificial intelligence on the roads.

[Barrie Kirk]

As I mentioned earlier, we have predicted that with full deployment we can save 80% of collisions and deaths, but not 100%. The technology is not perfectly safe. It never will be—I'm an engineer—but what I feel is that if we delay the deployment of AVs too much, we will delay the benefits of saving those lives.

There are two sides of the coin here. One of the issues is that the public and most other people in the know have expectations that are too high. The technology is going to be much better than humans, but never perfect. If we delay too much, we will in fact allow those accidents and collisions to happen. Those lives might otherwise be saved.

[David Ticoll]

I'll just comment that I think the industry and governments are going to learn a big lesson from this fatality. It shouldn't have happened. Somebody did something. Somebody, I believe, made a mistake, and not all people are making those mistakes. We need to get to the bottom of it and fix it.

[Ian Jack]

It's entirely appropriate, in our view, that vehicles have been pulled off the road while we figure this out, given that it's hard to understand how that particular death happened.

Over 300 Canadians a year are killed on our roads. Over 3,000 Americans are killed on the roads there every year. We focus on these rare instances in AVs and CVs, but a lot of deaths can be prevented with this technology.

[David Ticoll]

A lot of deaths can be prevented with existing advanced technologies in existing cars, and there are many cars on Canadian roads that already have advanced driver assistance systems and collision detection technologies. Right now, they're mainly in high-end cars like Cadillacs, but eventually they'll become widely available and they'll prevent a lot of accidents long before we have CAVs being universal.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

As a driver, I still make a number of arbitrary decisions that avoid having another incident happen. There are algorithms in place for a number of these scenarios, but let me throw one scenario at you. Let's say I'm driving down a two-lane road on a mountainside. There's a semi truck coming at me, and a mom and her baby walking a stroller near there. I'm in an autonomous vehicle. What does the autonomous vehicle do? Does it make the decision to take me off the cliff? Do we hit the semi truck? Do we run into the mom and the baby? Now, do I get into a vehicle thinking that it would probably mean taking me off the cliff? Do I get into a vehicle thinking that there's a risk that it's going to take me off the cliff? I think these are the issues, the moral and ethical issues, that are facing the industry. I'm curious as to how we justify every algorithm.

[David Ticoll]

Not to trivialize it, but one thing it will do is hit the brakes a lot faster than any of us could. That's number one. Number two, to reinforce what Mr. Kirk has been saying, is that on average the accident rate will go down dramatically, because that's not the typical situation that causes an accident. Over 90% of accidents are caused by human factors, and there's a whole range of them, from inattention to drunken driving to purposely running red lights—you name it.

All of those things are going to go away with CAVs. Yes, there will be some cases, but they will be such a small percentage of the collision risk situations that they'll be a rounding error compared to what we're experiencing right now.

As I say, and I don't mean to trivialize it, for one thing, they'll be able to hit the brakes a lot quicker and they may be programmed to make wiser decisions than you or I would make.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I don't know if a semi can hit the brakes quite as quickly, but sure....

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much to our witnesses. We very much appreciated the information. We will suspend for a moment while our other panel come up as quickly as possible, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

We have, from the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, Mark Nantais; from Electric Mobility Canada, Catherine Kargas; and from Sun Country Highway Ltd., Kent Rathwell.

Mr. Nantais, would you begin the testimony for five minutes, please?

[Mark Nantais, President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Good evening, everyone.

I thank you for this opportunity to appear before you on the subject of automated vehicles and connected vehicles.

Industry's effective and managed introduction of these technologies provides an opportunity to enable technological advancements that have the potential to significantly improve safety and enhance mobility, as well as help to foster innovation and growth at Canadian technology companies and research institutes.

It is imperative that Canada work in partnership with the United States and with industry to achieve alignment and synchronization of policy requirements, as these countries form a region with consistent infrastructure and seamless travel across borders. Vehicle technology in these areas continues to evolve at a rapid pace, and CVMA members remain committed to research, development, and deployment of advanced driver-assist technologies that reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities for occupants and vulnerable road users, including those involving automated vehicles and connected vehicles.

Government engagement, under Transport Canada’s leadership, will be needed to facilitate deployment and public acceptance of these technologies. While there are reports that AV and CV technologies, as we call them, could be ready in the next two to three years, we wish to clarify that their introduction will begin slowly and in a very controlled fashion, likely beginning with dedicated commercial applications, such as ride-sharing, before becoming available to consumers. As the technology progresses and rolls out, Transport Canada has a key role to play in ensuring nationally coordinated and aligned regulatory approaches that are informed by and synchronized with U.S. regulatory and non-regulatory approaches.

We would like to acknowledge recent progress, including amendments to the Motor Vehicle Safety Act that allow for the testing and deployment of new technologies where conflicts with current regulations exist. There have also been actions that make the act more nimble to align regulations with rapidly developing industry and U.S. requirements, given our largely shared driving conditions and public policy objectives.

In addition, the Senate Standing Committee on Transport and Communications have issued their report, “Driving Change: Technology and the future of the automated vehicle”, and Transport Canada has initiated consultation on policy options for enhancing the safety regime for AVs and CVs. Transport Canada is also engaging with the provinces and territories through the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators.

As preparation continues, it is critical to ensure that approaches are aligned across jurisdictions and to avoid barriers that may inhibit the testing and deployment of these technologies in Canada. These actions are essential for Canada to attract activities that would support the global efforts, given the substantial testing and research that are already taking place in other jurisdictions.

We are also acutely aware that data privacy and cybersecurity are key elements for successful deployment and public acceptance of automated and connected vehicles. They are a priority for the auto industry, the consumer, and government. Data protection and data privacy are embedded from the earliest stages of product development. As these technologies evolve, CVMA member companies will continue to comply with the comprehensive Canadian federal and provincial privacy laws that are in place to safeguard consumers' personal information. Federally, this includes PIPEDA as well as CASL.

Automakers are also proactive when it comes to actions to address cybersecurity issues. Security features are implemented in every stage of vehicle design and manufacturing. The sector also has a long history of partnering with public and private research groups and of participating in forums on emerging issues. The Automotive Information Sharing and Analysis Center—Auto-ISAC, as it's called—was created in July 2015 to identify and share information on potential cyber-threats as part of industry’s ongoing efforts to safeguard electronic systems and networks.

As automated vehicles and connected vehicle technologies are developed and implemented, continued discussion will be needed in many areas, but I will end here by reinforcing the commitment of CVMA members to the safety and privacy of Canadians and our commitment to constructive dialogue with the government as these technologies continue to advance.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Ms. Kargas.

[Catherine Kargas, Chair, Electric Mobility Canada]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for inviting me.

It is widely understood that over the next decade the transportation sector will experience more change than it has experienced in the last century. New vehicular technologies and new mobility models will profoundly impact how people and goods move around.

On the technology side, connectivity and automation will become an integral part of the mobility landscape. The combination of these technologies holds promise for safer, more democratized, and, if planned for appropriately, more sustainable mobility through the appropriate use of AVs. Around the world, governments are introducing regulations favouring the arrival of these vehicles and investing in the creation of industry hubs around connected and autonomous vehicular technologies in the hopes of attracting mobility stakeholders who will invest locally, resulting in strong economic benefits.

In Canada, the Province of Ontario has taken the lead in supporting the development and integration of these technologies. Through the Ontario Centres of Excellence, the Government of Ontario is investing with private industry in R and D efforts. The availability of qualified people to work on the development of these technologies is, of course, key to attracting stakeholders. The internationally recognized work of the University of Waterloo in AV-related research, for example, is attracting private industry attention and investment.

In December 2017, the Quebec government introduced Bill 165 to amend the Highway Safety Code and other provisions. It provides for the special rules that could be set under a pilot project authorized by the minister to allow AVs to operate on Quebec's road network. As was said previously, the time to act is now to ensure that Canada is an important player in what is expected to be a multi-billion-dollar industry.

With the expertise of its members, Electric Mobility Canada is uniquely positioned to understand and to promote the accelerated adoption of AVs as a key component of sustainable mobility. We are convinced that future connected and autonomous vehicles must be equipped with electric propulsion to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We encourage the Government of Canada to study the impacts of connected vehicles and AVs as part of the pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change and to develop regulations that will ensure that future vehicular technologies are electric.

The International Zero-Emission Vehicle Alliance, with member jurisdictions in Europe and North America, including two in Canada, in Quebec and B.C., is currently studying the future of shared autonomous fleets and how to ensure that these fleets are composed of electric vehicles. The jurisdictions seek to collaborate with other governments to expand the global ZEV market and enhance government co-operation on ZEV policies in order to strengthen and coordinate efforts to combat air pollution, limit global climate change, and reduce oil dependency by increasing ZEV deployment.

I am the project manager of this initiative and I lead the work the alliance is doing. I encourage the Government of Canada to learn from the work being undertaken by this alliance.

The House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities should study how to ensure that connected and automated vehicles are electric. This study should have three objectives.

The first is to determine the advantages of electric AVs on Canada’s climate change. Today transportation generates approximately a quarter of the country's GHG emissions. If the number of vehicle kilometres travelled increases, as is being expected, with the arrival of AVs, without a change in propulsion technologies we can reasonably expect that the transportation sector will result in significant increases in GHG emissions. Given GHG emissions generated by the transportation sector, given Canada’s climate change commitments, and given the unknowns surrounding usage of AVs, it is imperative that the committee recommend and document the numerous benefits associated with future vehicular technologies that are electric.

The second objective is to determine the areas of federal regulation. The Canadian federal government is to act in the best interests of Canadians. In the area of AVs and CVs, collaborating and learning from other jurisdictions, as well as organizations such as the ZEV Alliance, is recommended. The proposed work that we're suggesting should evaluate the impacts of these technologies and related business models in order to develop policies, regulations, and programs that have the individual Canadian, the economy, and the environment in mind, and it should comprise three elements.

First is determining how to ensure the safety of the technology, how we test for it.

Second is undertaking an assessment of how data laws will need to be changed to reflect the best interest of Canadians. This includes custody, access, and use of the mobility data, and an evaluation of how best to collaborate with provincial, territorial, and municipal governments on these technologies to ensure that sustainable mobility models are in place.

The third part of this study is to identify economic benefits and opportunities for employment creation in this country. We've talked about the loss of jobs. We now need to figure out how the arrival of this technology and these business models can develop jobs in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rathwell, you have the floor, sir.

[Kent Rathwell, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Sun Country Highway Ltd.]

Hello. I am Kent Rathwell, from Sun Country Highway.

Many years ago, really before anything much was happening in the electric vehicle sector, we decided that if the fact that electric vehicles couldn't actually travel wasn't dealt with, then the electric vehicle would die. It would be no different from gas vehicles without gas stations.

Back in about 2011, we decided to electrify the entire Trans-Canada Highway from St. John's, Newfoundland, to Victoria, B.C., and to do it without any government money. We wanted to prove that average individuals and Canadians across the country could actually come together to ensure that the electric vehicle did not die globally.

We electrified the Trans-Canada from St. John's, Newfoundland, to Victoria, B.C., in a matter of eight months. In the ninth month, we drove 10,000 kilometres in a car that was faster and sexier than virtually everybody's car in the world. It had no tail pipes, and the infrastructure was actually a few hundred per cent faster than what the automotive sector had designated as their limit for level 2 charging.

We drove it in the middle of the winter to prove that in Canada, even in virtually the most rugged and coldest climate in the world, electric vehicle infrastructure was in. We put to it bed. We showed that not only can cars be fast and sexy, but they can travel with no emissions, and the whole network was actually free. Since then, we've virtually electrified most of Canada's highways with the same technology.

In regard to the automotive sector, they still haven't caught up completely on the level 2 capabilities at which we can actually charge their cars, which is a few hundred per cent faster than what their cars can do today, other than Tesla and a couple of other car companies that have followed our lead.

We've rolled out this infrastructure to numerous countries now, and at the end of the day, we've proved that cars can travel pretty much across our country and can charge up a lot faster than the current standards with an infrastructure that's already in place today. The automotive sector, however, hasn't caught up to that level.

Basically, I am here to add some feedback on what the rollout of autonomous vehicles could be.

We've been involved with bringing other automakers to Canada to get Canadian engineering and design and Canadian parts. Actually, all their crash tests are done in Canada as well.

In regard to autonomous vehicles, it is a new sector. It's growing rapidly and it is going to be safer than what we have presently. It has been said that we're looking at upwards of a few trillion dollars by 2025 in the sector.

Canada can either focus on why it's too difficult to do and get done, or we can focus on the low-hanging fruit, try to implement autonomous driving in some capabilities and some areas that we can implement quickly, and become a world leader on this front. If we do so, we have the ability not only to drive our economy but also, as a previous witness mentioned, to save lives.

We can also reduce emissions. In Canada, transportation emissions are one of our largest issues in combatting climate change, and we can do it very easily in the transportation sector.

Again, I thank you for having me here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I think that at this point we've had the testimony, so we will suspend and go in the House to do our vote.

Does the committee desire to return for the remaining 15 minutes or so, so that we can get a few questions in?

[An hon. member]

Why don't we do a few questions now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Well, we could get maybe a couple of questions in. How about if we get one from you, one from this side, and one...so it will be two, four, and six.

[An hon. member]

And then we're done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Let's go.

Go ahead, Matt.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you for coming.

When AVs are on the road, could you provide a few comments on what needs to happen at not just the federal level but the provincial and municipal levels with the stop signs and everything, including the lines being painted?

[Catherine Kargas]

Do you want me to address the infrastructure issue?

It depends on the kind of development that is taking place right now. There are organizations like Waymo, for example, which is considered to be one of the leaders in the development in this technology, that are moving forward assuming that there will be no changes to infrastructure. However, there has to be a minimum amount of.... For example, we need minimal potholes. If you go into any city, particularly Montreal, you'd think you were in a war zone. The condition of our roads needs to allow these vehicles to function appropriately.

The other thing that is considered minimal is being able to see the lane markings. I think many of the developers will say the same thing. If we can have quality pavement and be able to see the lane markings, much of the technology that is being developed can certainly function in collaboration with appropriate mapping technologies.