Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kathleen Fox  Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Sylvain Alarie  Professional Engineer, As an Individual
Gilles Primeau  Professional Engineer, As an Individual
Natacha Van Themsche  Director, Air Investigations, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Jim Quick  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aerospace Industries Association of Canada
Jodi Diamant  Chief Engineer, Airworthiness & Certification, Pratt & Whitney Canada, As an Individual
David Curtis  President and Chief Executive Officer, Viking Air Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.
Steven Bruce  Director, Design and Certification, Viking Air Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.
Michael Deer  Airworthiness Specialist, Bell Textron Canada Limited
David Joseph Watson  Manager, Airworthiness and Air Safety, De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.

4:20 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

For the handling of this aircraft, in normal flight nobody should get near a stall in a 737 Max, until something unexpected happens.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Scot Davidson Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

That's right.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Primeau and Mr. Davidson.

We'll move over to Ms. Jaczek.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Thank you, Chair.

My question is for Ms. Fox.

This committee is tasked with studying the aircraft certification process here in Canada, so it's our duty, really, to ensure that all our Canadian institutions have the opportunity to comment appropriately when there is an aircraft certified in Canada that Canadians are going to be using, so that in fact every institution that touches this process has the opportunity to properly comment.

You have told us that within your mandate you were able to have only “expert” status, which was very limited as it related to the Ethiopian crash. Obviously, it's a terrible tragedy. Canadians died. What would you see? Would you like to have a larger role?

If you would like a larger role in terms of commentary and the ability to see what went wrong, how would we ensure that the TSB is actually able to play a larger role? Who decides those rules in terms of who gets to be at the site, etc.? Would you recommend that in some way we ensure the TSB has that role in the future?

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

If we're talking about being part of a foreign investigation because of an accident that happened on foreign soil but in which Canada has a direct interest, the body that sets those standards and recommended practices is the International Civil Aviation Organization.

If we use the parallel with the Iranian PS752 accident, where again Canada has only “expert” status, in accordance with ICAO annex 13, in that case the TSB has actually received more access to the site, the wreckage and the investigating agency—even though it's being led by Iran—than we're entitled to as experts, even in the same situation.

It would really be up to ICAO to make the changes so that when a country like Canada, or another state, has a significant number of fatalities, as well as recognized expertise to contribute, we should be able to play a more active role in the investigation.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Thank you.

In this case, though you had this limited role, will the TSB be issuing any type of report at all in terms of commentary when you do see what has been done?

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

We would not normally comment on an investigation report by another country. Talking about the Ethiopian Airlines, we're certainly watching very carefully to see what the FAA, Transport Canada and other regulators are going to do before they put that aircraft back into service.

Again, we don't, in our mandate, really have a role to play. Certainly in any subsequent occurrences involving that aircraft or others, we would look to see if actions taken were sufficient or if more needs to be done.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

You mentioned your response to the Swissair and Sikorsky situations. Have there been other reports that you've issued over the last many years? If there have been, Transport Canada presumably has looked at your recommendations. Could you comment on the type of response you got?

Further to that, if you as an organization are not satisfied with Transport Canada, do you have the opportunity to issue another report, or is there anybody who is able to do that?

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

The way we do it, yes, we've issued multiple recommendations over the years relating to certification issues on a variety of aircraft. We were talking about the Sikorsky S-92, and just to clarify, they are making improvements to that aircraft to allow it to fly 30 minutes without oil. They have responded to us.

We annually reassess the responses. When we find responses fully satisfactory, we say so. When there's more that needs to be done, we can rate it as satisfactory in part, or even unsatisfactory. Our ultimate tool is our recommendations, or even our watch list, if we find that there's a specific safety issue that isn't being addressed.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Your commentary is publicly reported.

4:25 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

Yes. All of our reports, recommendations, assessments and our watch list are publicly reported.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I have one question for you, Monsieur Primeau, and I hope you won't think it's impertinent. You have given us a huge amount of information. I think we all appreciate it, and we understand where you're coming from.

Are you doing this out of public interest? You're a consultant. Has this report been sponsored by anyone?

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

It's entirely...?

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

Yes, it's entirely voluntary.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

I commend you. That's excellent.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Primeau and Ms. Jaczek.

Mr. Doherty.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Primeau, are you aware of how Boeing classifies any 737 Max 8 major design changes?

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

That's the key question on the CPR: How do you determine if it's a minor or a major change?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Is it L-1?

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

Oh, on the nomenclature, I wouldn't know about the nomenclature.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

You don't know what those changes would be in terms of what a minor change is and what a major change is.

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

Normally—and Sylvain will be able to correct me if I'm wrong—if something turns out to be a major change, it should appear on the type certificate.

Is that correct?

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

Okay. Sylvain has gone through the type certificate.

Go ahead, Sylvain.