Transport Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Ms. Daviau, how do you explain the government refusing to help Nav Canada, even though we are talking about an essential service, and accepting such high fare increases for airlines, in addition to significant job cutbacks?

[Debi Daviau]

Nav Canada is a fee-for-service company after being privatized, and it recovers its money from those fees to airlines. As the number of flights has dropped, in order for Nav Canada to be able to maintain a certain level of service it has to charge even higher fees. That's why we're asking for a grant for Nav Canada, not a loan, because a loan would result in higher fees to airlines down the road, and that's certainly not going to help anybody.

At the same time, the higher fees are not enough to sustain its workforce. They're having about a $750-million-a-year deficit. For every year that this pandemic goes on, Nav Canada's budget is having a shortfall by that amount.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

Our last intervention for the first round goes to the NDP and Mr. Bachrach for six minutes.

Mr. Bachrach, first off, I want to congratulate you on your new role as the transport critic for your party. Welcome aboard.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses. There has been some excellent testimony, and I really appreciate the answers to the questions thus far.

I wanted to start with Mr. Rauenbusch and Mr. Lesosky, and talk about the wage subsidy program. To my understanding, a lot of the workers you represent have been fully laid off from their positions when the companies had the option of furloughing them and using the wage subsidy to provide them with some financial benefits while they were furloughed. Is the wage subsidy serving your members? Is it serving the workers in your industry? Or should it be structured differently in order to make sure that workers are protected and have what they need during these difficult times?

Maybe we can start with Mr. Lesosky.

[Wesley Lesosky]

Is the wage subsidy working for my members at Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge? No, it's not.

Roughly 72% of our members, just shy of 7,000 members, have been laid off or will be laid off in the next week. Of all those members, none is able to participate in the CEWS program because the company is not utilizing it for those members.

Do I think the government should do more? Yes, I think there should be a tie-in with the program that if the program is going to be used for active employees, those who are flicked off as inactive or those who are laid off or furloughed should be placed on the program.

One of the main things with the program is to keep the employee connected to the job force, to keep them able to be flicked on, per se, instead of going through a huge recall process. Of course there is an avenue there to bargain with the union to deal with the benefits, the pension and the other things that come along with it, so yes, I definitely think more needs to be done.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Maybe I'll just follow up with Mr. Lesosky on that point and move on to the issue of workplace safety.

My understanding is that Transport Canada has really been working with the airlines to try to represent the workplace safety concerns of airline workers. Are they doing an adequate job of that, or is there a different arrangement that you think would better represent the workplace safety needs of the members you represent?

[Wesley Lesosky]

Thank you for asking that question. I am definitely passionate on that one as well.

Transport Canada is definitely more engaged with us. There are weekly calls; there is dialogue. However, what I find with Transport Canada, especially in my role as union president with the airlines, is that there are many recommendations but there is nothing being enforced.

I'll give you a good example. One thing that is highly recommended industry-wide is a lavatory dedicated for people working on the plane, that's sanitized, that's clean, that is only for cabin crew and pilots. That's a recommendation put out by Transport Canada, yet no airline in Canada is following it because nobody can enforce it.

This is a huge problem. There are great recommendations that come out, but there is nothing with teeth to follow up on them, and that causes us problems at our health and safety committees, in which scenarios, I believe, profits come ahead of safety.

If Transport Canada is putting it out, we have to believe that it is doing so because it has a basis on which to do that. It's looked at something that has led it to believe that this is a safe practice. If it's a safe practice out there and our loads are at 50%, I don't understand why we're not following it, but even more so, why the government doesn't enforce it.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lesosky.

Mr. Rauenbusch, you mentioned regional routes, which are of great concern to people in northwest British Columbia, where we've seen the suspension of scheduled passenger service on several routes.

You mentioned the importance of those routes being connected to international routes or long-haul routes. We're at a time right now when it looks as though the public health advice is against international travel, and yet there is an immediate need in regions like the one I represent for those regional routes to be maintained at some basic level of service.

To your mind, is there a way to structure this federal financial relief in a way that keeps those regional routes whole at a basic level of service for absolutely essential travel?

[Christopher Rauenbusch]

Yes, absolutely. What I was getting at with that part of my statement was that until we reach a point in the world where the pandemic has reached a certain level, where we can once again see these global networks resuming to a certain capacity to be fuelling those regional routes in Canada, we need to keep the regional routes going. My intent was to indicate that, as the Prime Minister has indicated a number of times, part of an airline aid package would be for regional routes. The point was that we will need some financial assistance in order to be able to get through the next period of time until the pandemic has reached a point where the global networks come back.

That was my intention, so absolutely yes, and I agree that they are key to our nation's functioning.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Maybe the last quick question is to Mr. Wayland about the NavCan services.

Can you talk a little bit more about the potential safety implications of losing these services, especially in remote communities? I know right now we're talking about concerns in Windsor and Whitehorse and Prince George, really important centres. Can you talk about the safety concerns that have been raised as a result of this speculation around termination of those services?

[Matt Wayland]

Mr. Chair, I will defer to my colleague Mr. Cameron.

[Paul Cameron, Business Manager and Financial Secretary, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers]

As far as air traffic services are concerned, I can't quite comment on that. Any types of cuts you're looking at will obviously, for the passengers and the surrounding people, slow it down. Our concern is more for the employees. It's not just the members that local 2228 represents, but all employees of Nav Canada. When they do cut jobs from any area, we're looking at the safety of not just the flying public and the other public, but also the employees. We're talking about fatigue management.

The company and everyone else will be looking at a certain level of service. Nav Canada pre-pandemic was understaffed. The previous CEO said publicly, a year or so ago, that they were ramping back up to try to get close to 100% staffing. Well, now they've laid staff off, so now you're even further down that rabbit hole. They were more than willing to pay overtime to people to make up those levels of service. That's probably what's going to happen again. You're looking at fatigue management in just about every sector of Nav Canada, so that safety will take a hit.

I hope I answered your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

We'll move on to the second round.

Mr. Strahl, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, Chair. It's a pleasure to be here on behalf of the official opposition, as the shadow minister for labour.

I want to get right into it here. It certainly is not normal to have a panel like this come before the committee and universally condemn the lack of action from the government. That's something I certainly haven't seen an awful lot of in my nearly 10 years as a member. It's not often that the regulator is universally condemned in that way for a lack of action.

We thank you for the extra work you're doing, while doing your own jobs, advocating for your members. I'm sure that's a very mentally taxing activity in addition to having concerns about your own job security.

We need to get things back to normal, as normal as possible during this. That means we need to get the majority of the population vaccinated [Technical difficulty—Editor] those who want to get vaccinated, and we've seen certainly huge problems with the rollout of that. My observation is that as those problems have been clear, as we have, for instance, zero Pfizer vaccines being delivered, the Prime Minister has started now to dangle this possibility of a 14-day mandatory hotel quarantine as a way to distract from the failure on vaccines.

Mr. Rauenbusch, and then Mr. Lesosky, have you been consulted, has your union been consulted, on a possible 14-day mandatory hotel quarantine at cost to travellers? What is your view on the impact that will have on the industry?

[Christopher Rauenbusch]

That's a very much appreciated question. No: In simple terms, no, we have had zero consultation on that potential taking place.

In terms of the impact, when the announcement was made, just before the new year, of the mandatory testing for passengers coming into Canada from abroad, the view of my union was that this was going to further destroy demand and our ability for the airline to keep revenue coming in. If this were to take place, for which, again, we were not consulted, I would foresee almost decimating levels of complete inability to bring in any revenue whatsoever.

This crisis began for our industry as a liquidity crisis for airlines. Quite simply stated, if this measure does get put in place and demand is just absolutely decimated.... I absolutely believe that the health of Canadians is important, but we need help as an industry to get through the next period if this announcement is made. If WestJet, as an example, doesn't have the liquidity to survive, no one's coming back to a job when this is over. That's why we are so insistent that we need something here in order to be able to have jobs and an employer to return to. I can't overstate the significance of how that would unfold without an aid package or some sort of assistance.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Maybe I'll get Mr. Lesosky to take this next one. You talked about the Canada emergency wage subsidy and how it certainly wasn't serving the people who had been laid off and were not receiving it. I wonder if you or your union have any comments on the fact that foreign-based carriers were collecting the Canada emergency wage subsidy when they were not Canadian airlines.

[Wesley Lesosky]

I've heard of that, but again, my only comment would go back to what I originally said. Without a foundation for how the program is supposed to work, of course anyone who feels they're entitled to it or has an entitlement to it is going to take it.

I think that's the primary foundation behind a program like this. You have to have conditions and you have to have something set so that the expectation for the employers is there, but more importantly, so that everyone who should be entitled to it, especially those Canadian companies that are laying off thousands and thousands of workers, can utilize it to assist in supporting those people.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Mr. Dias, you obviously have a very productive and positive working relationship with this government, as evidenced by the fact that you've had several meetings with ministers of transport when the other witnesses have been unable to get one.

In October, Unifor came out and strongly suggested that rapid testing could be a saviour for the airline industry and for your workers. Why do you think the government has ignored that request? Why has there been no action to increase rapid testing for the airline sector over the last number of months?

[Jerry Dias]

Well, there's no question that it has been a moving target since October, but it's no justification for why we wouldn't put in place some of the basics as we're heading towards an element of normalcy within the industry, and we're clearly not there now.

There's a variety of things we have suggested that have yet to be done, that we've said to the government. Right now, we're talking about Nav Canada and the increase they're giving to the airlines as it relates to gates and landing fees. Our argument is that Nav Canada needs the money but the government should be doing that, because the airlines can't afford the extra costs. Also—same thing—the government should be waiving the fuel tax right now.

We should be taking certain measures for Canadian companies. I wouldn't be giving the fuel subsidy and I wouldn't be giving the landing fees to international carriers. Their governments, by and large, have already given them billions.

One of the things we've also raised with the government is that most of the airlines aren't asking for free money. They're saying, look, give us.... We were talking about $7 billion for the entire industry: a 1% loan over 10 years. Loan, fuel tax and landing fees: that helps Nav Canada and it helps the industry, but so far we're hearing a lot of crickets.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

My next question will be for you, Mr. Perry. I wanted to get you to follow up on this. Again, I think there's been haphazard.... There was the announcement for people to have to secure a test when they were abroad, but many of them had already travelled. Also, we heard that 50,000 reservations were cancelled almost immediately.

We're doing a similar thing now, with premiers and the Prime Minister now openly musing about severely increasing the quarantine for travellers. What would be the impact on the pilots association and on your members?

[Capt Tim Perry]

I think it's difficult to overstate that impact. The industry is hanging by a lifeline, and that would prevent any traction from happening that could possibly be gained.

Those types of measures would go against recommended practices that come from world organizations, as we've referenced many times in our submissions to the government. There's a better way of doing that with testing and involving our quarantine measures that achieve safety for Canadians, and that can allow the traction to happen in our industry.

I could go on, but I mean, it would be devastating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

Mr. Bittle, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all of the witnesses for advocating on behalf of all their members.

I, along with the chair, represent a region that has a tourist industry, and anything connected to the tourist industry, but especially airlines, has been devastated by this because ultimately we're telling Canadians to stay at home. That is because we want to control the spread and that is the least risky thing to do. Every time we step outside of our house, the level of risk increases.

We heard from the National Airlines Council, which lobbies on behalf of the big airlines. I was a little worried about what I heard from them when we asked them about refunds, regional routes, maintaining aerospace contracts, executive compensation, opening their books and hiring back employees as conditions. They really skated through those things. I do take the point of Mr. Lesosky that that's between us and the airlines, but I think it's important to state that everyone in this room and everyone on this call wants to see compensation for the airlines and wants a successful industry, but there are steps that we have to go through.

I have a question for a few of the witnesses. We've heard it in the past about rapid testing and [Technical difficulty—Editor] side of it and we've heard that there is up to a 30% negative rate.

Is this an effective way to reboot the airline industry, with that level of error? Is that going to be effective? I believe it was Mr. Rauenbusch, Mr. Lesosky and Mr. Dias who brought that up.

I'll direct that to Mr. Rauenbusch.

[Christopher Rauenbusch]

To clarify, you're talking about rapid testing specifically or about other types of testing?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It's rapid testing.