Transport Committee on March 25th, 2021

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since my motion took up a bit of time, other members can have the floor to question the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

With that, we are going to move to Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back to the committee, Mr. Keenan. It's good to see you again.

As you're probably aware, on February 11 a small tugboat sank near Kitimat, B.C., in an accident that claimed the lives of two men, Troy Pearson and Charley Cragg. It was a really tragic maritime disaster. There are a lot of questions being asked. I appreciate that there is a Transportation Safety Board investigation ongoing.

The family of one of the men has launched a petition to have the boat raised. That petition has received over 11,000 signatures to date. Could you speak to whether Transport Canada is pushing to have the boat raised, or whether that's something you're willing to consider? What role does Transport Canada play in that question? What are some of the other considerations in terms of ensuring a fulsome investigation and getting the families of these two men the answers they need for closure?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Before I go to Mr. Keenan, I now see the bells are ringing. I will need unanimous consent by the committee to continue.

Do I have that unanimous consent?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

No. Rather than being a complete jerk and denying unanimous consent, can I propose, with unanimous consent, that we go another five minutes, or however much time is left, to allow Mr. Bachrach to finish his question? We'd bring the clock down rather than just ending it fully.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Is everybody okay with that?

That's fine. Okay.

Mr. Keenan, the floor is yours.

[Michael Keenan]

Thank you for the remarks from the honourable member, Mr. Chair. There are several parts to the member's question.

First and foremost, I just want to echo that our thoughts are with the families and that we appreciate the great pain they're in as a result of the loss of their loved ones in such a tragic manner. The circumstance in terms of it being one of the first jobs for somebody new in the industry is just a terrible tragedy, which is why we work so hard in Transport Canada across every mode to try to make sure we're doing everything we can to reduce the risk of these kinds of tragic accidents. That's the first thing.

The second thing is, as the member correctly pointed out, the TSB has launched an investigation into the causes that led to this. They do really good work. As a matter of priority, we take into account the results of their investigations in evolving safety regulations and oversight activities, so we are waiting to see what will happen and what will come of their report.

When there is an incident, we always do fact-finding to assess what happened and to determine whether or not we should launch an investigation. It's difficult to provide any material update on that, because it's sort of a very careful legal process that is currently in an oversight activity.

On the issue of raising the tug, under the Canada Shipping Act, there is a set of rules in terms of determining when sunken wrecks need to be raised or some action taken against them. In the legislation and in the regulation, the focus is on the threat to the environment, for example, if it's leaking oil or if it is a threat to navigation.

There are very difficult circumstances like this where the remains of loved ones are in wrecks. There is no authority or mandate to raise the wrecks in those circumstances, but there's a discussion that goes on between the RCMP and the Coast Guard to take into account the exact conditions and the situation they're in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan.

Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan.

I'll direct some communications to the Coast Guard and the RCMP in that case.

I did speak with the ILWU, which, as you know, represents a number of tugboat crew up and down our coast. They have real concerns about these smaller tugboats and the regulatory system that's in place to ensure their safety, particularly for commercial vessels under 15 tonnes.

This isn't the first incident involving this class of vessel. I'd like you to speak a little bit to the steps your department is taking to ensure that, in the future, when workers go out to work at sea in these vessels, they come home to their families at night.

[Michael Keenan]

Just to add one point to the previous question in terms of raising the tug, I think one of the key challenges and issues in this particular circumstance is the depth of the water that the tug is resting in. It's quite deep, which puts people at risk bringing it up. It's a situation where these factors have to be taken into account by the Coast Guard.

In terms of the issue of incidents with tugs, it is an area where Transport Canada has taken note of the fact that there are incidents that happen and that it's an area where we have increased our oversight activity in recent years as part of what I would call a risk-based oversight system in which we're always looking at where we see incidents and then try to move our oversight activities to address them.

I may turn to the ADM of safety and security, Kevin Brosseau, to speak a bit more about that.

[Kevin Brosseau]

That is indeed the point from a risk-based perspective. As the member mentioned, Mr. Chair, this is a vessel of a certain weight, and the regulatory posture at Transport Canada under our regulatory regime is based on the size or the weight of the vessel. In fact, regarding the safety management system regulations that are required with respect to those vessels, we are engaged in consultation with industry stakeholders, including the Canadian marine advisory council, with respect to that and to advancing potential changes to our regulations looking at the fall, and it's a very important piece. Obviously, as the member mentioned, the safety of seafarers, including those on tugs, obviously, is a critical element of our risk-based oversight posture at Transport Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Brosseau.

You have time for a quick question, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Well, I certainly appreciate the responses.

I suppose my question is whether the current risk-based regulatory system is adequate to ensure that incidents like this don't happen. To my understanding, from discussion with the ILWU, some of these smaller vessels, under 15 tonnes, are being used in ocean conditions in which they are not necessarily appropriate; the inspections aren't necessarily frequent, and people are going to sea in situations where they aren't as safe as they could be. The question is really what specific improvements the department will be making to ensure that workers are safe at sea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Gentlemen.

[Michael Keenan]

Go ahead, Kevin.

[Kevin Brosseau]

I would say that we are currently reviewing a risk-based system, Mr. Chair. In fact, if shortcomings are identified, then we'll adjust accordingly as we do and as we carry out our oversight activities with respect to these vehicles.

I will say that the tug industry in B.C. has been leading on safety management for many years. We'll continue to adjust if, in fact, we find any deficiencies that need to be addressed.

[Michael Keenan]

Just to build on Mr. Brosseau's comments, we have seen a pattern of incidents among the small tugs, as the member has indicated. Those are the ones below 15 tonnes. The bigger the vessel, the more stringent the rules get.

We've done two things. We've done a fair bit of outreach in terms of promoting compliance. As well, we're actually launching a small-vessel compliance program for tugs, and we're looking at bringing in a safety management program for these small tugs. We would agree that it's an area that merits additional oversight and additional enforcement and programming; I would say not just enforcement but also raising awareness and requiring safety management in that small vessel class.

We believe with these actions we have started to undertake and will be undertaking, we can reduce the risk we see in the activities of the small tug class. They're small vessels, but there are a lot of them, particularly up and down the west coast.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Keenan and Mr. Brosseau and the entire Transport team. We truly appreciate your participation in today's meeting.

It was a great meeting, with a lot of information given out, a lot of questions asked and a lot of answers provided, so to everybody, including our members on the committee, I say, great job today. It was very productive.

Before I adjourn, I'd be remiss if I didn't take the opportunity to also extend congratulations as well as appreciation to two members of our committee who will be leaving us.

Mr. Bittle is now taking on a new role.

Chris, thank you for your participation in our meetings. We truly are going to miss you. Our loss is going to be someone else's gain. Thank you for your time here.

Mr. Sidhu, you have taken on a new role, a new PS role. To you, congratulations. We're not too sure when you're going to be departing, but I understand it probably is going to be within the next three weeks. Again, we congratulate you and thank you for your participation with our committee. You as well will be truly missed. Again, someone else's gain is going to be our loss.

We are expecting to have two new members on the committee. We'll be welcoming them here, I'm assuming, within three weeks, at our next meeting.

Finally, I want to say, to the minister and the members of the Transport team, that we do appreciate a lot of what you're doing, especially as it relates to the aviation sector, and, of course, your efforts to try to come up with a deal with the aviation sector. I think some of the comments that were made today give us a lot of comfort. More importantly, beyond us there are those who are out there expecting refunds for tickets that were purchased, as well as the travel agents, who have heard today from the minister himself that those are on the table, and of course being discussed within these negotiations. That is truly going to mean a lot less anxiety for those who are affected.

Again, I express my sincere appreciation.

With that, members, we will now adjourn. Have a great evening.