Evidence of meeting #27 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson
Glenn Campbell  Assistant Deputy Minister, Investment, Partnerships and Innovation, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Gerard Peets  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Results, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

April 22nd, 2021 / 3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Good afternoon, everyone. I call to order meeting number 27 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

As many of you know, once again today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are all aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I will point out a few rules to follow.

First off, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either “floor”, “English”, or “French”.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. With regard to a speaking list, as always, both the committee clerk and I will do the very best we can to maintain the order of speaking for all members, whether you are participating virtually or in person.

Members, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee will now commence its consideration of the main estimates 2021-22.

It's my pleasure now to introduce and welcome our witnesses.

Appearing for the first hour, from 3:30 to 4:30, we have the Honourable Catherine McKenna, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities, as well as the person I would call her right arm and sometimes both arms, Kelly Gillis, the deputy minister of Infrastructure and Communities.

Kelly, it's great to see you again.

For the second hour, between 4:30 and 5:30, we have witnesses from the Office of Infrastructure of Canada. Kelly Gillis, the deputy minister of infrastructure and communities, will continue to be with us, as well as Nathalie Bertrand, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer, corporate services; Glenn Campbell, assistant deputy minister of investment, partnerships and innovation; Alison O'Leary, assistant deputy minister of program operations and communities and rural economic development; and Gerard Peets, assistant deputy minister of policy and results.

With that, welcome to all of you. It's great to have you at the committee.

We're going to start off with Minister McKenna.

Minister McKenna, you now have the floor for five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Ottawa Centre Ontario

Liberal

Catherine McKenna LiberalMinister of Infrastructure and Communities

Thank you very much to the chair and to committee members. It's great to be back in front of the committee.

I want to start by recognizing that I am on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples. I am in my house, so hopefully there will be no interruptions. You never know.

I am certainly very pleased to be here to talk about the government's commitment to building back better, which is especially relevant as today is Earth Day. Happy Earth Day to everyone.

As I say, it's really about building the future we want. Infrastructure is a key role, and I'm here to talk about main and supplementary estimates to advance the government's national infrastructure plan. Of course, I'm very happy to be joined by Kelly Gillis, my deputy minister.

Well, COVID-19 has certainly reshaped so many aspects of our lives, including how we do committees, and of course, how we get around in our communities and how we connect with each other. The good news is that we will get through the pandemic, but as we do that, we need to think about ways to build back better.

We must build the Canada we want, with good jobs, a sustainable economy, cleaner air and more inclusive communities where people want to live, work and raise their families.

This week, Deputy Prime Minister Freeland tabled budget 2021, a plan that will help us conquer COVID-19 in the short term, punch our way out of the COVID-19 recession in the medium term, and build a more resilient and cleaner Canada.

This plan will help parents, particularly women, return to the workforce with more affordable and accessible child care, reaching $10 a day in the next five years. I don't have to tell any of the parents here how important that is.

It also invests in bold climate action, building on what we have already done and setting us on a path to reaching net zero emissions in 2050.

Today, on Earth Day, we acknowledge just how important climate action is, but I would say that in my role, I think about it every single day and about how infrastructure needs to help us tackle climate change and build more resilient communities.

Whether it's assessing the climate impacts of new roads and bridges or electrifying public transit and retrofitting buildings to become more energy-efficient, as we build back better we need to continue our fight against climate change. Every infrastructure decision is inevitably a climate decision too.

Infrastructure investments help create jobs, drive economic growth, tackle climate change and build more inclusive communities. To do this successfully, we're seeking $6.8 billion in the 2021-22 main estimates: $4.3 billion in grants and contributions to support 22 infrastructure programs, and $2.3 billion for the gas tax, now renamed the Canada Community-Building Fund, which I think is a far better name—assuming I got it right—all to ensure that communities across Canada have the money they need when they need it.

We're also seeking an increase of $2.2 million through supplementary estimates (C) for 2020-21. This funding will support the recent approval of the “Strengthening Stewardship of Canadian infrastructure: Long-Term Resourcing Strategy” Treasury Board submission, which granted Infrastructure Canada permanent operating funding. I can't tell you how excited that makes me, because we definitely need permanent operating funding.

I can see my deputy smile.

The additional funding will enable the department to meet existing obligations, maintain operations, and meet the evolving infrastructure needs in Canada, including driving to net zero by 2050.

This is what I want to talk a little bit more about today.

To be honest, I've always hated the word “infrastructure”, and I'm not the only one. John Baird, former minister of infrastructure, agrees with me. It's a made-up, bureaucratic word that undersells the final product. Talk to someone about their new community centre or about finally being hooked up to high-speed broadband or taking an electric bus, and you realize it is so much more.

It determines our quality of life and is critical for our economic growth, job creation and combatting the effects of climate change. Especially now, as we look towards recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19 strengthened our resolve and spurred us to do more, to do it faster, and to do it more strategically.

We've accelerated project approvals under the Investing in Canada infrastructure program, and since March of last year, we have approved nearly 3,100 projects, representing a federal investment of more than $4.1 billion. These are projects in communities across the country.

This serves as a testament to the progress we're making with our Investing in Canada plan. We know the plan is working. Canadians know the plan is working: they see the progress in their communities. The federal government has invested more than $81billion for more than 67,000 projects, with 90% of them completed or under way. This means that 40% of the way into the plan, we've invested more than 40% of the funding.

But it's about more than the plan. We are doing so much more that is being counted under the Investing in Canada plan. We're moving forward with universal broadband, green and inclusive community buildings, and many other initiatives that were not part of the plan's original design, initiatives that help address issues raised by the pandemic, such as the COVID-19 resilience stream, the Canada healthy communities initiative and new funding for ventilation, the latter of which will reduce the risk of COVID-19 transmission by funding projects to improve ventilation for schools, hospitals, and other public buildings.

And initiatives that are helping us reach our climate targets, like the investments we're making in public transportation.

On February 10, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and I announced a federal plan to invest nearly $15 billion for new public transit infrastructure over the next eight years. This funding includes a long-term strategy to deliver $3 billion annually for public transit beginning in 2026-27. Since then, I've announced additional details around Canada's approach to public transit funding, including investments in 5,000 zero-emission buses and in such active transportation as cycling and walking paths, rural transit and more.

But we can't just build back better; we have to build back smarter. That's why we launched engagement on Canada's first-ever national infrastructure assessment. We will rely on experts, data and evidence to identify Canada's infrastructure needs and priorities out to 2050.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Can you wrap it up, Minister?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

The year 2021 is a year of change, and at Infrastructure Canada we continue to look for innovative ways to do things better.

Our goal is to make tangible improvements that contribute to better public transit, improved connectivity, cleaner water, good jobs and much more.

Twenty years from now, I hope a kid riding on a new subway line in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver, or riding an electric bus anywhere in the country, will look up at his mother and ask how it got built. She will say, “It's part of how we built back better from this terrible pandemic. We got through it, and now we're living this action.”

We know that through our historic investments in infrastructure, we're helping Canadians and their communities adapt and recover, getting people working and building a cleaner, inclusive and more connected country for the future.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Minister McKenna.

Before I go to questions, I want to mention to the committee that we will probably close the meeting up early today because we have a set of main estimates—I believe there are 10 of them, to be exact—to vote on prior to adjourning the meeting. We're probably going to veer from the agenda and go to those votes when we have about 10 minutes left in the meeting. I'll also remind members to provide any comments they may have on the reports that we're expecting to come back to committee.

Finally, before I go to Mr. Scheer, I'll say that it seems when the ministers come out, we sometimes have some crossover in comments. I'll say it that way. I request that members try to respect the interpreters and not talk over each other, because this makes things harder for the interpreters and it's not good for their ears. I hope you will give that respect to the folks working in the backroom.

With that, I'll start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Scheer, you have the floor for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, recently the Parliamentary Budget Officer told this committee that your department has so far refused to provide to him all of the information regarding the infrastructure projects that you have claimed. In fact, he highlighted almost 9,000 projects that your department has been unable to verify. That was last month.

Has your department been able to provide that information to the Parliamentary Budget Officer?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much to my critic for his question.

We provided the Parliamentary Budget Officer with an itemized list of more than 33,000 projects that we fund directly; another 20,000 projects that we support through block funding, such as the gas tax fund; and some CMHC projects.

Let's be clear. Part of the challenge was written by the Conservatives themselves. If you look at the 10-year agreement the Conservatives signed on the gas tax fund in 2014, it does not require provinces to provide detailed reporting on each project or its outcomes. In fact, Quebec isn't required to do project-by-project reporting at all.

I want to thank my team, including Kelly, the deputy, and the whole Infrastructure Canada team, who had to go across government, make sure that we reported on projects and find projects in the provinces so that we could properly report.

We need to fix this. That's something I am committed to, because we obviously need to get a full accounting. However, I can tell you that if you go to any city or town across the country, people will tell you how much these projects are making a difference in their communities.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

The minister has been part of a government that has been in government for several years now. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has asked for this information. The minister makes these claims, so I have a very simple question.

Just last month, the Parliamentary Budget Officer said there are over 8,500 projects that this department has lost track of. I have a very short question and I hope the answer will be correspondingly short: Has the minister been able to provide the Parliamentary Budget Officer with the missing information?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Let's be 100% clear. We have lost no projects. We have tracked all the projects and we've provided the information.

When it's time to—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

You've provided all the information.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

—renegotiate the 10-year agreements with the provinces that were negotiated under the Conservatives, we will make sure that everyone has to report on every single project, correcting the error made by the Conservatives.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Now you're telling us that you have provided this missing information to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Is that what you just said?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

We have provided information about all the projects—more than 33,000 projects that we fund directly and another 20,000 projects that we support through block funding.

I'm happy to turn this over to my deputy. She can provide more information, because our department spent a lot of time getting all this information.

Deputy, would you like to say something?

3:45 p.m.

Kelly Gillis Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Thank you—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

You've made the claim, Minister. You are directly contradicting what the Parliamentary Budget Officer told this committee just last month. You're asking Parliament for billions in new spending and you can't keep track and can't verify. The Auditor General reported the same thing. There's missing information, and we're not able to track projects.

I just want to make this crystal clear, as you have now repeated it a couple of times. You are now telling this committee that you have provided to the Parliamentary Budget Officer every piece of information that he has requested.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

Yes, we have provided the Parliamentary Budget Officer with a complete list of information. Last June, I personally wrote the Parliamentary Budget Officer and provided a clear and detailed accounting of all the projects, including the 33,000 projects on which we get detailed information, and gave information related to the gas tax that we collected.

The 9,000 projects that you're referring to are from CMHC. They're not Infrastructure Canada projects. They're related to transfer payments to the provinces and territories. We do not get project-by-project information there, but all of the claim information is subject to third party confirmation and compliance with the bilateral agreements we have with the provinces and territories. The projects are related to investments in affordable housing, in shelters for victims of family violence and in social housing. That is why we don't have detailed information. However, that information was provided to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and we later confirmed this again, following up to make sure they were clear on the information that was provided.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

To be clear, those were projects your department claimed, so to say now that they are not infrastructure projects.... They're part of the global amount that the minister claimed. You're telling me—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Go ahead, Ms. Gillis.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Kelly Gillis

I would like to confirm that they are not programs or projects within Infrastructure Canada. Within the overall Investing in Canada plan, there are 21 departments and 93 programs. Within the 93 programs, one of the organizations is CMHC. They have a number of programs that are related to the overall plan. They are accountable for managing, executing and implementing the programs within the plan that are under their responsibility.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

You're saying these projects are not under Infrastructure Canada, but they come from the overall Investing in Canada plan. These were added to the list when this government made claims about projects they were making. This is why the Parliamentary Budget Officer asked for the information in the first place. Now you're telling this committee that you paid out for the projects but are unable to provide the type of information the Parliamentary Budget Officer has asked for.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Minister, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Sorry, Chair, but I'd like to be 100% clear. We have provided the information on all the projects.

Do you know what? There is a big question Canadians want to know. The Conservatives in the last election ran on a platform to cut $18 billion in—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

That's just not true—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Catherine McKenna Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

—infrastructure investments, so out of all of the projects we're talking about, can you—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

That's not true—