Transport Committee on June 15th, 2021

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Could I jump in quickly, Mr. McCrorie?

Were any fines levied? It seems that you're saying the rail company was at fault. Were any fines levied? Was there any accountability whatsoever on the part of the company?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I hesitate to go into a lot of detail. It's a recent incident and we have to be careful about the conduct of the investigations.

What I can say is that if there is a decision to issue an administrative monetary penalty or to take other action, it does get posted on our public website. There's good transparency around that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. McCrorie, and Mr. Bachrach.

We will now go on to our second round of questions, starting with the Conservative Party and Ms. Kusie for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go back to a theme that has been brought forward throughout this entire first round. This of course is regarding the report issued eight years ago.

The Auditor General's testimony reads:

I would highlight that, yes, I'm concerned. Until we can demonstrate that the activities that Transport Canada is doing in coordination with railway companies and other important parties are actually having a difference, we should be concerned.

I just want to ensure that the department is receiving the resources that it needs to become compliant with the report by the Auditor General.

Mr. McCrorie, in your opinion did the department have the necessary resources to make these improvements?

[Aaron McCrorie]

As I've noted already, we did see an increase in the number of inspectors we have working both in rail safety and in the transportation of dangerous goods program. Those inspectors are directly in the field doing inspections.

We also saw an increase in our resources at headquarters to do the work around developing the regulations and the tools inspectors use.

Yes, we feel confident that we have the resources necessary to accomplish that very challenging feat of demonstrating a link between inspections and improved safety outcomes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Mr. McCrorie, you're stating that you feel you have them now. Did you feel you had them over the last eight years?

[Aaron McCrorie]

Yes, I feel that we've had the resources necessary to deliver an adequate rail safety and TDG program.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In that case, it's not as a result of lack of resources for your department that you were not able to meet the recommendations of the report.

[Aaron McCrorie]

Again, if we're talking about the recommendation, that speaks to measuring the effectiveness of our oversight program and of safety management systems. Part of that is putting in place the building blocks over time.

For safety management systems, it was about getting the new regulations in place, making sure that they were adequately understood and adequately implemented, developing the tools—which we've now done—and then launching the effectiveness audits, which we're now going to be doing in September of 2021.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

On the record, in your opinion, you feel you don't require anything further from a resource perspective in an effort to achieve all of the recommendations as outlined from the report.

[Aaron McCrorie]

We're always striving to improve the rail safety program and the rail TDG program. We'll look at every avenue and opportunity to do so.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay.

If it wasn't a matter of resources that did not permit you to achieve the recommendations from the report, where do you think the deficiencies laid?

[Aaron McCrorie]

With all due respect, I would again characterize it as making decisions about how we prioritized our work over those intervening years and making informed choices. I apologize if I use the same example, but the SMS regulations are a great example of that.

First of all, it was making sure that our rail safety management system regulations were improved in light of what we learned post Lac-Mégantic. You can't start measuring the effectiveness of that until you've actually seen railway companies implement them. That took time to do, working with railway companies to implement them.

Having had that implementation in place, we're now in a position to start measuring the effectiveness.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You're saying then that the rail companies now are also working with you in an effort to be compliant.

[Aaron McCrorie]

I'm not sure if I understand the question. We do assessments—SMS audits—to ensure compliance against the SMS regulations. All the other inspections we do are all about ensuring that railway companies are complying with the regulations.

I'm a firm believer that most operators in all transportation modes start from a principle of wanting to operate safely. Their starting point is to try to comply with regulations. When they don't, we take corrective action. It's either education to help them get back into compliance or, if it's warranted, we take enforcement action with, for example, administrative monetary penalties.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

I believe that's all the time I have. I'm at 5:40, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

I was trying to squeeze another one in there, but that's fine. Thanks, Mrs. Kusie.

We're now going to move on to the Liberal Party, with Ms. Jaczek for five minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to turn to the part of our motion that actually addresses the impact of rail operations on neighbouring communities, because I know that a number of MPs, including some on this committee, have to deal with constant complaints from their citizens. These are complaints about excessive noise, vibrations, tying up traffic at intersections and issues that generally reduce the quality of life of residents. Probably at the back of their minds they do know about Lac-Mégantic and the derailment in Mississauga many years ago, so this is a source of not only annoyance, but also potentially of serious issues.

I'd like to ask Mr. Oommen about this. What exactly does the Canadian Transportation Agency do in these cases to help citizens?

[Tom Oommen]

The examples that were brought up are good ones. If we take one of them, for example, the agency actually does have quite a robust system for tackling noise and vibration complaints. That's outlined on our website where, in the first instance, we ensure that the community and the railway have a dialogue and an opportunity to address the issues. If they can't agree, then the agency can help to facilitate or mediate a solution, and if that doesn't result in any success, then the agency can issue an order with regard to noise and vibration. That's a typical example of how the agency would intervene in a community problem.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Would the order actually be enforceable? Would the railway company have to comply, and suppose they did not?

[Tom Oommen]

Yes, an agency order about noise and vibration is enforceable. Should there be complaints subsequently that the railway is not following the order, then we would ensure that the matter was investigated by a designated enforcement officer of the agency, and subsequently the railway company could be subject to fines for violating an agency order.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I have heard from some of my colleagues, however, that this sort of resolution service has been very slow, and in fact has not resulted in positive outcomes. The complaints are ongoing.

Now I'd like to turn to Transport Canada and Mr. McCrorie. Do you have any authority if, in fact, the dispute resolution service provided by the Canadian Transportation Agency doesn't result in community satisfaction? Do you have any powers to intervene?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I'm going to throw the question to my colleague Mike DeJong, if I may.

[Michael DeJong]

With our railway safety inspectors we're very responsive to complaints or issues when they're raised, and we do take the opportunity to then make inspections when complaints are made, and to potentially look for non-compliance. We then have graduated enforcement mechanisms at our disposal, including administrative monetary penalties, and orders as well.

We also have regulatory requirements in place, for example, to help mitigate some of the impacts of railway operations. An example I would flag would be under the grade crossings regulations. We have requirements that prohibit railways from blocking a crossing for more than five minutes. If there is a complaint, then Transport Canada can send an inspector, and then if appropriate, issue a fine.

There was a recent example in December 2020 when a Transport Canada inspector applied a fine to a railway company for blocking a crossing beyond the regulated time limit.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Turning now to Mr. McCrorie, following up on Ms. Kusie's line of questioning, with regard to the unresolved issues relating to the recommendations made subsequent to Lac-Mégantic, where are you focusing now? You obviously told us that you prioritized some of those recommendations to date. What is left to do, and what is most important to do?