Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruce Campbell  Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual
Terry Ugulini  Mayor, City of Thorold
Robert Bellefleur  Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic
June Wolfrath  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Jonathan LePera  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Chad McPherson  Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference
Isabelle Bleau  City Councillor, City of Boucherville, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Cliff Penn  Member, Port Robinson Proud
François Beaulne  Chair, Subcommittee, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson

5 p.m.

Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference

Chad McPherson

I think it's nearly impossible to comply with the five-minute rule. For the switching operations, there is room for improvement on that. Train design can be looked at with respect to where the traffic that needs to be switched is in regard to the location on the train. If it's on the back end of the train, you're going to be on crossings. If it's at the head end of the train you won't be following crossings. For the situation in Regina I proposed a fix to blocking the Ring Road and those 11 crossings by making sure the rail was lined up for that movement to continue moving until it had cleared, without having to be stopped and go at low speeds and block those crossings for extended periods of time.

Shorter trains, realistically, are just not going to be an option for the carriers. That's just where we are today, but as for preventing them from stopping in key locations like highly populated or at-risk areas, I think there's definitely room for improvement on that.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. McPherson; thank you, Mr. Soroka.

Before I go to to Ms. Jaczek from the Liberal Party, I see that Mr. Penn has joined us. I understand that Mr. Penn is just getting off work and has joined us on screen.

Mr. Penn, I'm going to give you an opportunity to make some opening comments if you wish, or do you just want to answer some questions?

5 p.m.

Cliff Penn Member, Port Robinson Proud

I can do both, Vance.

I'd like to address Mr. McPherson about the rail crossings blocking traffic.

In Port Robinson we're a small community isolated by two roads. There are two points of access here, and your trains cut off both points of access. I had a heart attack in February. With a five-minute rule alone, that's enough to have people pass before the first responders can attend. Beyond that, when we're waiting 15 to 20 minutes at a time we're showing up late for work and then the answer has always been, if you contact CN they'll break the train apart. How do they break the train apart when the trains are that long? I've sat there for 20 minutes. Mr. Badawey can tell you I've sent him messages regarding it, and this is a daily or weekly occurrence. How can we correct that?

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Penn.

Are there any further comments, Mr. Penn, you want to make?

5 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

Cliff Penn

I would like to thank the committee for asking me to join. I sent in a statement. I'm assuming that everybody has had an opportunity to read that.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Okay. We're just into questions right now, and the next set of questions is going to be coming from Ms. Jaczek from the Liberal Party.

Ms. Jaczek, you have the floor for five minutes.

June 17th, 2021 / 5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

Certainly, the testimony today and on Tuesday has been extremely interesting. Of course, the possibility of tremendous tragedy, such as we saw in Lac-Mégantic, is there, as well as what we heard with regard to noise, vibration, the quality of life and the blocking of traffic, as Mr. Penn has just alluded to, and possibly emergency vehicles. Of course, at the back of people's minds is the potential that there could be a derailment in their community. We know this is happening across the country.

My questions are for Port Robinson Proud. In particular, we heard on Tuesday some testimony from a representative of the Canadian Transportation Authority. They detailed to us that the CTA would respond to complaints within some 20 days, that they were able to order all sorts of mitigation related to noise and vibration, and that there would be orders served in regard to those.

Mr. LePera, perhaps starting with you, could you please describe your experience in terms of approaching the CTA and the length of time you experienced in getting a response? I know you're not supposed to discuss the mediation itself, but could you just lead us through the process and how it's worked for you?

5:05 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

Jonathan LePera

I'll tell you how it worked. I blocked myself out of it both times to make sure I could talk here today. I had a hope and a dream that you would some day have a standing committee, that democracy would prevail—not to use that as a cliché—and that somebody would get it here.

It was the worst feeling as a city councillor, because you're in a conflict of interest. You can't sign the NDA, to be in mediation, in case it ever needs to go public. Again, recently, there was another NDA.

I can tell you, based on my conversations with Mr. Bettencourt, the liaison who offered me the opportunity to participate with the CTA, that he had a lot of.... It was a very roses and sunshine kind of conversation—you know, we can pretty much move mountains—but I just didn't believe it. I wasn't willing to sacrifice my voice to be able to do that.

I found it really troubling, Tuesday evening, to hear that the CTA has this much power to act upon complaints, yet we've had two mediation sessions. They shunt through the night like it's a regular business day, which is not allowed. The length of cars is not allowed. There are constant infractions.

I sat for 32 minutes at a rail crossing. I called CN police, who respectfully said they were sorry, and it shouldn't be happening, but they had no jurisdiction and couldn't do anything. That was 32 minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Thank you.

Maybe I could turn to Ms. Wolfrath as well for her experience in terms of timelines and the responsiveness.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

If I may, folks, I'm sure you know this but I'll just clarify that an NDA is a non-disclosure agreement.

June, go ahead.

5:05 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

That's right. I can't discuss too much, but I can say that I originally started with an application to CTA about noise and vibration. It took about six months, so it really was a short time. CN and I and CTA came together. We had two sessions. We came to no resolutions. It was essentially listening and saying, yes, that happens, and it has to happen. It was left at that. That's where it's been left.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

In essence, the end result should be public knowledge, surely. There has been no resolution.

5:05 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

There has been no resolution.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Okay. Thank you very much.

How do you feel that the CTA's dispute resolution process should be changed?

5:05 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

I just don't know how to speak, because I am always afraid that I may infringe on the NDA I signed.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Well, if you feel uncomfortable, please don't proceed.

5:05 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

I do feel uncomfortable. I honestly don't know how to interpret what I can say, so I'd rather just not say anything.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON

Okay.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mr. LePera.

5:10 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

Jonathan LePera

Plain and simple, I think you need to give the power back to the government. I think you need to revise the legislation. Just because it's legislation.... Yes, it's grandfathered, but it's archaic, and it makes no sense to me that we have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to protect our rights on every level, to make sure everybody is equally protected, yet a rail agreement cannot be changed to reflect a changing society.

I would say that this is why we elect leaders. You're all leaders; your people all trusted you, not the other person; they trusted you, and this is your chance to really be a good exercise in democracy.

I want to point something out, though, about this yard that's very interesting. When I moved here 17 years ago—I hope you'll give me some lateral movement on this—I called the city planner and I did my homework. A lot of people were like, “Well, you were dumb enough to move by a rail yard.” No. When the vendor sold, he said that no trains went by. I saw the fence in Mr. Penn's backyard, which is six feet tall, and I called the planner at the time, and I asked if that was going to work. She said, “Based on our sound studies....”

I'm going to paint you a picture here. From my doorstep to the rail line is about 510 feet. Separating us is a rail line that is above grade, that's above the fence. Not only that, in the forest that separates us—and there's not much of it with 500 feet and another row of houses—all the trees shed their leaves in the winter, so there is no noise barrier. It leads me to believe.... CN was consulted in this process before the subdivision went in, as was the city and MOE. CN promised that if their traffic went up 4%, they would introduce more or improve noise mitigating measures.

That tells me one thing. When you look at the layout here, that's conservation land beside the track. Where were they going to put the noise attenuation measures? They never expected to increase 4%. I just connected the dots sitting here. I'm like, why would they have allowed it? They were either going to go by the legislation, or the function of the yard has changed, and they pretty much put a circle into a square hole, and that's how we've ended up at this meeting today having this uncomfortable discussion with you guys and hoping that we can effect change. I hope I shed some light.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. LePera.

Thank you, Ms. Jaczek.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc Québécois for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses have raised the issue of Lac‑Mégantic bypass before the committee. They also said that they would like to see the railway rerouted in Boucherville.

My question is for Mr. Beaulne.

I understand that you have worked on track rerouting projects. How did it go working with Transport Canada? Do you believe any improvements should be made?

5:10 p.m.

François Beaulne Chair, Subcommittee, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Actually, yes, in the early 1990s, in anticipation of the Soligaz project in our area, which was to bury natural gas tanks in the City of Varennes, the rail cars that were to supply that project were going through the populated areas of our city, Varennes, with highly flammable materials.

At that time, I was the member of the National Assembly for that riding, and with the Quebec government, we'd considered making a bypass route to prevent highly explosive materials from passing through our populated areas. The federal government said no. This was at a time when CN, which controls the line, had not yet been privatized. You can imagine how much more difficult it is today to get a private company to design and study a rail bypass project.

What I would say to the committee somewhat reflects Mr. LePera's comments that industrial operation conditions have changed. This is not the late 1800s, when a lot of these railways were built and running through towns and villages to supply these communities with essential goods.

Today, quite to the contrary, the Government ofCanada, the Government of Quebec and other provinces are working to maximize the use of rail transportation for very commendable reasons, which are reducing greenhouse gases and other environmental considerations.

I feel it's now time for the federal government and the Department of Transportation to change their perception of rail relocation projects to a preventative perspective rather than ex post facto, as was the case in Lac‑Mégantic.

If rail is to play an increasingly important role in the transportation of hazardous materials, the federal government needs to be more receptive to plans to relocate railway lines in populated areas.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Beaulne, and thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on the NDP.

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.