Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruce Campbell  Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change, York University, As an Individual
Terry Ugulini  Mayor, City of Thorold
Robert Bellefleur  Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic
June Wolfrath  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Jonathan LePera  Member, Port Robinson Proud
Chad McPherson  Locomotive Engineer, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference
Isabelle Bleau  City Councillor, City of Boucherville, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Cliff Penn  Member, Port Robinson Proud
François Beaulne  Chair, Subcommittee, Comité ferroviaire de Boucherville
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

The Auditor General said that she found it discouraging that, after so many years, the results weren't being checked. I think that this is telling.

I want to give the committee members another document presented to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. This document follows up on all the recommendations of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. I'll send it to the clerk so that he can look at it. The document follows up on all the recommendations made when we were sitting together in 2016. In particular, I want to talk to you about two recommendations today.

The first recommendation said as follows:

That Transport Canada accelerate the current study examining the feasibility of establishing a rail bypass ... and partner with the municipality to facilitate the request ...

According to the status report submitted by Transport Canada, the file has been completed. However, we don't have a bypass yet. The committee should be aware of this situation.

In response to Mr. McPherson's testimony—

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you.

I will table the report for you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you.

We're now going to move on to the Liberal Party.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for six minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses who are present today, as their testimony is essential for this study.

I will address my questions to the Port Robinson Proud residents.

We all expect to enjoy a good quality of life in our homes; however, I understand that many families are greatly affected daily by the CN operations.

My first two questions are, what kind of attempts have you made to resolve the shunting issue with CN, and how have they responded?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Ms. Wolfrath or Mr. LePera, who wants to jump in?

Ms. Wolfrath, go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

On the first one, we are advised by our municipality to contact CN via email directly. When I first started to complain via email, they would answer. I have to tell you that in the last few months, they do not even let me know that they have received the complaint, and I never hear back from them. I would say that in the last two months, I have heard nothing.

I am very respectful when I send my email in, and I ask them why the locomotive is shunting when it's 20°C or 30°C, because I know that on their website they explain that at 5°C and below, it must—

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you. I'd like to also give an opportunity to have other responses.

Go ahead, Mr. LePera.

4:35 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

Jonathan LePera

Thank you, and I thank you for inviting us today.

It's a great question.

If I came across as terse or serious in my speech, I wanted to meet the time limit, not to disrespect the committee.

We've tried everything. I used to be a city councillor in my municipality, actually, for 10 years. When I was on council we met with members of Parliament and we met with CN; we tried every means possible via that route. I have been off council for probably about 10 years now.

We have tried two mediation attempts. We've tried the CTA. You call the CN police and they're very respectful. I've never met a rude police officer yet, and basically you understand they have very little control over the operations in the yard. Sometimes a phone call can fix it.

Thus far, the most productive means of resolution has been Chair Badawey. Chair Badawey has shown leadership I've never seen before. No disrespect to any of you, but one phone call from him has meant that shunting stopped within 10 minutes. That meant that the idling stopped within 10 minutes, but this wasn't consistent.

What's happened is that sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't. You have to understand, I am also texting at one o'clock in the morning, or at three o'clock in the morning, whenever, and he gets it. The proof is that Chair Badawey gets it, but those calls go unanswered now. When the complaints go in, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

I want to point to last night, in particular. The argument has always been, in Thorold, move the shunting north. There is so much barren wasteland. It's unuseable land that will not impact anybody. I want to point out that this yard was expanded after the city requested that it be relocated, so it's not like an after the fact. We requested that they relocate it, and then I think they went and dumped $100,000—Mayor Ugulini will have to look it up—and they now say, we can't afford to move it.

I'm sorry, but with $3.2 billion in profits, this is like us buying a Kitkat at the Avondale. This is about being a good corporate citizen.

Our soldiers did not die at Vimy Ridge for this conversation to have to happen today. It's embarrassing.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Penn, do you want to add to that?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mr. Penn hasn't joined us yet.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

My next question is again for both of you. Do you have any idea what the cost might be to relocate the yard?

4:35 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

Jonathan LePera

I would have no idea. We've never gotten that far into the conversation, nor have I been privy. Perhaps Mayor Ugulini might be able to shed some light on that.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

Ms. Wolfrath, do you have any comments on that?

4:35 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

I honestly don't know, but I was once told—I can't remember by whom—that it would take about $1 million. Personally I think $1 million to CN is peanuts. That's all I have to say.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Again, please do not judge the question I'm asking. It's just to get it on record. This is for both of you, once again. Who do you think should bear the cost of relocating the yard?

4:40 p.m.

Member, Port Robinson Proud

June Wolfrath

I think CN should bear the majority of the cost, but the City of Thorold may have some responsibility.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Mayor Ugulini, do you have a comment?

4:40 p.m.

Mayor, City of Thorold

Terry Ugulini

The city has met with CN multiple times. We've had those discussions. We've talked about moving the yard north, because we think that's a feasible solution and it's probably the cheapest solution. The problem is—and the Port Robinson group knows this very well—the length of trains has increased, and because of the closing of one or two other yards, the amount of shunting done at that location has increased the need in that yard. You have to understand that there's a history here. That yard wasn't as busy as it is now. I think increasing activity in that yard, in a residential area, should never have happened.

Who should bear the cost? CN should bear the cost because they've increased activity and increased the length of the trains. Moving that yard because it doesn't fit in a residential area should be at the cost of CN. I know the city would work with CN, because we have some rights of way and own some property just north. We could work with them and come up with a feasible solution.

However, they have to be willing to make that move, and I'm going to tell you, a big argument they always bring up is that moving the yard north will affect their shunting operations on the length of trains they can put together. Do you know what, though? Putting together longer trains and totally disrespecting a neighbourhood is not a feasible answer.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Mayor; thank you, Ms. Wolfrath and Mr. LePera, and thank you, Mr. Iacono.

We're now going to move on to the Bloc Québécois. Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We heard strong and very moving testimony today. I want to thank the witnesses and tell them that I, for one, heard them. I hope that we'll have the opportunity to prepare a report on their testimony from today.

My first question is for Mr. Bellefleur. You said earlier that you saw defects on CN's rails again recently and that oil or dangerous goods cars are still passing through Lac‑Mégantic.

Do you think that it's appropriate for these types of goods to pass through a downtown or urban area and, above all, that information about what's running on the tracks isn't available?

4:40 p.m.

Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic

Robert Bellefleur

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

First, these are CP trains, not CN trains. I'll forgive you, since both of these major Canadian companies are involved in this issue.

No, in our opinion, it isn't normal to see a series of 30 tanks of propane gas, sulfuric acid, sodium chlorate and automobile gasoline coming down the Nantes hill, the second‑longest hill in Canada, and arriving downtown on a more pronounced curve. The original curve, where the tragedy occurred on July 6, 2013, had an angle of 4.25 degrees. The contaminated area had to be bypassed when the track was quickly rebuilt. We now have an eight‑degree curve, and virtually no superelevation. If the conductor doesn't slow down enough on the slope, there will be another disaster in Lac‑Mégantic. Once a 100‑car train speeds up, you don't try to stop it. It will just accelerate.

It isn't normal to see these products passing through downtown Lac‑Mégantic or any other downtown. The products transported are no longer products that people need. These products are necessary for businesses and industries. Normally, they should be diverted to industrial parks.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Mr. Bellefleur.

I also want to give you the chance to answer the second part of my question, which concerned information about what's running on the tracks.

4:45 p.m.

Spokesperson, Coalition des citoyens et organismes engagés pour la sécurité ferroviaire de Lac-Mégantic

Robert Bellefleur

In summer 2019, we attended a hearing of the Bureau d'audiences publiques sur l'environnement, BAPE. We requested access to content information from Central Maine & Quebec Railway, but unfortunately it was confidential.

However, thanks to the placards, you can easily see the numbers and get a good idea of what's going through. I installed a surveillance camera in the trees and I film every train that goes by. That way, I can find out what products are being transported. Anyone with a cellphone or any public authority can easily know what is currently passing by despite the industry's well-kept secrecy.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

I'd like to ask you another question.

As was raised earlier, not long ago CP was saying that it was impossible to meet the deadline announced by the government, which was to complete the rail bypass by 2023.

Recently they've turned things around, and it looks like it would be possible in the end. Do you believe it's possible? If so, how would they manage?

I am told that the engineering plans are not done, Canadian Transportation Agency approvals have not been obtained, and the work has not yet begun. The rest is not done either.

From your perspective, is the deadline realistic? Do you believe it's possible?