Transport Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[Stephen Laskowski]

In terms of going to the underground economy, it's all age groups. Yes, we have the oldest age group, the largest percentage of employees over the age of 55 in the drivers' community, and that's contributing to people exiting the industry faster than in other sectors.

With regard to the specific reference you're making to the TruckingHR Canada report, what you're seeing there is a big percentage of those drivers leaving those labour-compliant companies and going to the underground economy.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I want to follow up on some of Mr. Barsalou-Duval's questions on the EV trucks and semi trucks. I thought there were some interesting responses to that. In reviewing some of the research prior to this committee, by 2030 there are a number of organizations that are looking to move to significantly higher numbers of EV trucks. I think of ENMAX and Bison as a couple of those that have at least tested these vehicles.

I'm curious as to what the thinking is within the industry.

I'll start with Mr. Laskowski and then maybe get some comments from you, Mr. Burgan, on what the potential is, plus and minus, for the industry. With the obvious shortages, is this an option that you guys are supporting?

[Stephen Laskowski]

Technology isn't going to replace truck drivers. It's the driver-assist technology that's going to make truckers safe. The truck technology is by no means remotely close to dealing with the driver shortage. It's simply not. It's going to make us safer. It might attract more people, because the trucks will be safer to drive. The technology attracts the people, but it is by no means anywhere near addressing the issues we're talking about today.

[Omar Burgan]

You said EV. I assume you meant AI, as in driverless trucks?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Yes, AI.

[Omar Burgan]

We have a lot of questions about safety, and we kind of feel the same way. I don't think the technology is quite there yet. An analogy that is sometimes made is that for a long time we thought we could have planes that could fly without a pilot, but I think most people would feel much better knowing that there's a pilot in the cockpit. We just have a lot of questions about whether having driverless trucks is something workers think about a lot. They feel worried that they will be replaced, especially with our winters and the roads we have up here. I agree with the CTA that a lot of technology will just make driving safer and better.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jeneroux.

I now give the floor to Ms. Koutrakis for five minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing before our committee this afternoon. Thank you for your excellent testimony and great points, which we should all take back and reflect on.

I'm curious, and this question can go to any one of you. I'll start with Mr. Laskowski, because you touched upon this issue. I'm just wondering if you could elaborate, or if you know whether there are transportation sector labour shortages that are under the radar that may be particularly problematic if they go unaddressed. I'm particularly looking to see if there are any safety issue concerns as a result of that.

[Stephen Laskowski]

A lot of us have talked about drivers, and it's the number one concern, as we've said, because the issue here is that if we don't have a driver, the truck doesn't move and the freight doesn't move. We've all said that, and that is the reality.

Perhaps one—I wouldn't necessarily say that it's under the radar in our sector, but it's perhaps not talked about enough—is heavy-duty mechanics. Just like in all sectors, we have labour shortages everywhere, but there is a significant shortage of heavy-duty diesel mechanics. Obviously, keeping those trucks safe and keeping them in operating condition is the number one priority in our sector, so yes, that is another area we are very interested in working with the Government of Canada to resolve.

[Omar Burgan]

We also feel that appropriate training, such as by recognizing truck drivers as a skilled trade in which they would have onboarding and training in order to be safer drivers, would be a good thing. As I mentioned, there was even a case in Quebec where people were selling fake licences, and this is in part due to the shortage, because there's a lot of demand for drivers. This puts pressure and creates a situation in which people will find ways to cheat to get someone behind the wheel, but we need people who are properly trained.

In the rail sector, we also need to make sure standards are good so that we don't have high rates of exhaustion, which is a problem in the rail sector.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Actually, that's a great segue, because I'm worried about that. You know, there's a labour shortage, but business must go on, so what happens now? Do you hear of complaints from workers who are being forced by their employers to perhaps take on an additional shift? That's what I'm concerned about when I talk about under the radar.

Are we setting ourselves up for a higher risk in the short term? What do you think we can do to address some of those concerns? Can the federal government do something in that regard, or is it even a federal jurisdiction issue?

[Omar Burgan]

A lot of it is federal jurisdiction.

I'll ask my colleague, Mariam, if she has any comments on issues in the rail sector regarding safety.

[Mariam Abou-Dib]

Yes, for sure.

The Department of Transport has talked about looking at specific fatigue regulations. We did get some new duty and rest rules, which we've been working with, and there are still some issues that we have to resolve with them. However, there does need to be a very focused study on fatigue and regulations that deal with fatigue, because that is a very real issue in the rail sector, and it is exacerbated by the fact that there is a shortage of...and there are vacancies in that sector in and of itself. Accidents are happening. We have yet to really go through a significant period of time without a fatality, and I think it's really important to start thinking about fatigue as a symptom of an archaic industry that really needs quite the overhaul in and of itself.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

We've talked about the issues and the challenges that we are currently facing with the labour shortages. I'm wondering if any of you are aware of certain industries that have been especially effective at addressing labour shortages. If so, can you provide us with some examples of how they handled that?

[Bruce Rodgers]

I'll jump in from the freight-forwarding sector.

It may not be something we want to hear, but employers are moving the business out of Canada. They're moving it offshore. I had a conversation with one individual today who indicated that their company has moved, that their equipment finally arrived in Serbia this week, and that they're hiring MBA-equivalent individuals at a rate of about $1,200 per month. These jobs are not going to return to Canada, so as we continue to have these labour-related shortages and as other countries are offering resources at prices that are attractive to employers, more and more of this is going to go on. This is not a new situation that's occurring, but this one organization, as we commented earlier in our opening remarks, moved its workforce. It used to be that 10% of the workforce was going offshore; it is now 25%. I think that percentage is going to increase if we don't solve some of these labour-related issues that we have today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rodgers, and thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.

Next we have Mr. Dowdall.

Mr. Dowdall, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I, too, want to thank all the witnesses today for their testimony.

It's certainly an issue that I've heard lots about, even prior to the pandemic itself. I think the issue in this industry, especially the trucking industry, has been one of keeping, finding and retaining drivers.

I have Honda in my riding, so I have a lot of large trucking companies there, and this has been an issue. One trucking company, for instance, I believe, has 150 trucks, and the average age of the drivers is 61, so it's a huge issue.

I grew up wanting to be a professional hockey player or a truck driver, because there were good truck movies back then. I don't know if you remember Burt Reynolds and Clint Eastwood. I don't know if we need some movies out so that youth will get into this again.

Part of the problem might be—and we have this in Ontario as well when it comes to anybody in the trades—that a lot of parents don't really push their kids to get into this field, and now they realize through the trades that a lot of those individuals are making more money than the academics who have gone through certain university programs.

It is changing a bit when it comes to trades here in Ontario, but I think the reality is that no matter how you sum up the problem, working there with the hours, the shifts and doing long haul now, the next generation is not into that. They want to be home every single day.

I think the answer—and I just want to know what you think—is that, in order to get those people, they have to be paid a lot of money, more than the average person would think a truck driver would get, because it's such an important part of everything we do. Every company, like food, as Lianne was saying for the farming industry....

Until that happens, I don't know, so I'm asking you. Other than that, quite frankly, how can you get people to say they want to be a truck driver?

[Omar Burgan]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Good working standards will attract more people. If the salaries are higher, and if people feel like it's a good way to support their families and it's worth the sacrifice of perhaps being away from home, they will come more readily if those jobs pay better.

We have heard stories, for example, of some employers recognizing that people wanted more time off. They worked with the employees and their union and created more creative scheduling, for example, having three 12-hour days in a row and then four days off. A lot of workers really like that.

It's both things. I think, if people can earn good money because they are the ones stepping up and making the sacrifice by doing a hard job, they'll come. Also, if they feel their employers are responding to their desire to have more work-life balance, they will likely stay longer.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I've heard a lot of talk today about unions and union truck drivers.

I just want to recognize that even the smaller owner-operators are pretty important. I had a lot in my riding prior to.... A lot have gotten out of it because of either the insurance, the fuel costs, or the wait times. Like we said already, there's a lot of time they waste if they're an owner-operator.

I have a question abut fuel, because, as we know, it's getting a lot more expensive. Is that going up? Is that money going to take away from money that perhaps we could pay that company or that individual to stay in the industry?

We heard earlier that when there's no training.... Could there be an incentive somehow that would help in the long run, as opposed to just paying more? You're not changing your vehicle; you're going to be driving the exact same vehicles, the same trucks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Does anybody want to answer that? Mr. Laskowski, Mr. Burgan, Mr. Rodgers or Ms. Abou-Dib.

[Stephen Laskowski]

I'll just add that there are multiple factors that attract and retain people. Money is one of them, as the Teamsters recognize, as are different shift schedules. Many fleets are doing it, but the more flexible you get.... For example, some fleets that do long haul—and what I mean by long haul is Winnipeg, Texas, Toronto, Los Angeles—are saying it's one week on, one week off. Well, that truck needs to move the next week, so that means you need double the drivers—

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

All I'm saying is that the increase is not affecting your ability to retain some of the employees or perhaps do some of that training. This is money that's going out that you can't change all of a sudden. It's going to cost us all more money, and it's not going to change the vehicle that the driver is in.

I don't see where the advantage is to charging a lot more money now.

[Stephen Laskowski]

I'm not trying to avoid the question, but to be honest I'm not clear where we're going with this question. The reality is that fuel has gone up. There's a separate system for how fuel is captured, and there's costing of the carrier system, including labour.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Will more people not go to the underground now, though, because it's going to cost more to operate legally?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We'll have to save that one for perhaps Mr. Muys's time.

Next we have Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.