Transport Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[Jacob Charbonneau]

Yes. Much of that is attributable to the role played in parallel with the organizations. I spoke earlier about a company that was find $7 million by the United States Transportation Department for simply having taken too long to pay compensation. The department played a proactive role in that case.

During the pandemic, the U.S. equivalent of the Canadian Transportation Agency was quick to require automatic refunds in the form of travel credits. Europe did the same thing. In Canada, it took months before travel credits were allowed and then dealt with individually with the carriers. The Canadian Transportation Agency therefore doesn't play a proactive role and doesn't assess many penalties on carriers, which are not monitored.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Charbonneau.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Next, we have Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their testimony today. It's been very informative. It sheds some light on the information we already have about the unprecedented disruptions to flights, and the delays and cancellations, over the past two years.

My first question is for Mr. Lawford.

I would like to know whether the numbers you stated for the labour shortages, between 16,000 and 20,000.... Actually, you said there were 16,000 to 20,000 backlogged responses. You said that was within the last year. Does that number also include the ones that are two years old, or do you have another number? Is that just for one year?

[John Lawford]

I used the Canadian Transportation Agency annual reports and other reports to come up with that number, so 16,000 to 20,000 were at least a year old. As pointed out by one of the other members, they were in the more adjudicative stream at the Canadian Transportation Agency, meaning they were looking at them in detail. That's the number I was referring to.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There could be more than 20,000 backlogged, then.

[John Lawford]

Yes, there are some newer ones too. There are always more.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Are you aware of the numbers attributed to labour shortages? They wouldn't state that was the cause of a delay, so you wouldn't know what those numbers are.

[John Lawford]

No, I wouldn't be able to give you a firm figure on that.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

My next question is for Madame de Bellefeuille.

You spoke in great detail about the conflict inherent in airlines providing responses about why a delay occurred. It sounds to me as if you're advocating somewhat for a new system where there would be minimum standards.

Within that system, could you foresee something like a scale of compensation where there would be minimum compensation and the airline would have to stipulate whether it was due to insufficient staffing or a safety issue? Those issues would not absolve the airline of its responsibility to compensate.

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

We feel that the problem stems from how the regulations are worded. They leaves a lot of room for interpretation by air carriers. When something happens, they are the ones who decide what category they fall into, on whether it's up to them to take action or not, and whether the incident raises safety issues in their opinion. That's where the whole problem lies.

It's neither the compensation nor the amounts to be refunded that are the problem, because these are provided for in the regulations. On the other hand, we have seen that the air carriers tend to interpret the already rather vague provisions in the regulations in a matter that is beneficial to them, in order not to have to compensate people. It's really an internal conflict of interest.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

If there was no ability to interpret it broadly and it was just a fixed scale saying the incident occurred and therefore it should lead to compensation, which is somewhat of a reverse onus, that would take the power out of the hands of the airline and put it more into the hands of the consumer. Would you not support a system of that nature?

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

In fact, the problem is not the amount of compensation, but the reason for the delay or cancellation and the interpretation of it by the air carrier. The airlines tend to interpret the regulations in a manner that is most favourable to them.

We spoke earlier about how to apply the existing rules. The idea is not necessarily to review all the rules, but how they are applied.

Right now, the consumer or passenger has to submit a refund claim. It's also up to them to prove or demonstrate that the airline had not interpreted the regulations properly, but then the consumer or passenger doesn't have access to all of the relevant data to do that.

So the problem is really the lack of relevant information and the fact that the airlines would very much like to be able to say that the delay or cancellation was beyond their control.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. De Bellefeuille.

Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis.

Next we have Mr. Badawey.

Mr Badawey, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think we recognize in this conversation, over and above the lack of consideration by the airlines for customers, the need to look at the mandate of the CTA. We all recognize as well that in these committee meetings, witness testimony is going to inform the basis of the report that goes to the minister and therefore the response from the minister on that report and future recommendations.

What I'm really interested in are the recommendations to fix or update the problems at the CTA. Frankly, I want to focus on the business of good government and not, as we may assume in today's meeting, the business of good politics. This issue simply does not have the time or patience to allow politics to rear its ugly head.

With that, policy and legislation are established by Parliament. The administration and implementation of that policy and legislation are the responsibility of the CTA. What we're hearing today is a narrative about fixing the problems that are happening within the CTA.

I have my opinions. I have my problems with the CTA in my own riding, so I get it. I understand exactly what you're all talking about.

I'll start off with Mr. Lawford, and Mr. Charbonneau is going to follow. I'm going to open up the floor to recommendations on updating legislation with respect to the CTA mandate, which would be the responsibility of Parliament. Let's ensure that the process is user friendly and other things.

My second question with respect to that is whether you feel the Minister of Transport should have a role in ensuring that the CTA mandate is adhered to, over and above only establishing or updating legislation, versus forcing individuals to have to pursue accountability through the courts.

Mr. Lawford, we'll start with you.

[John Lawford]

The first question is easier to answer.

One thing I would suggest, which doesn't involve a lot of back-and-forth and changing the act that creates the CTA, is to do what the CRTC did. There was a directive from the government asking if they could make a consumer complaints agency, and we were waiting. They gave them one year to do a report and set up that system.

What came out was the Commission for Complaints for Telecom-television Services that now does this at semi-arm's length but is overseen, especially for systemic issues, by the CRTC. They didn't have to change the legislation for the CRTC; they just asked them to set this up. It's paid for mostly by the industry, yet it's administered by the CRTC through this new body of the CCTS. That would be one way to get around this quickly without having to amend a lot of legislation.

I guess I didn't quite understand your second question, so I apologize. Maybe you'll want to circle back to me to not waste time.

[Jacob Charbonneau]

On the first question, I think it needs to be more than friendly. It has to be fast, and it needs to have teeth. The first level should be able to ask for proof. They should be able to understand the proof and make a decision that will be executory.

What's more, I believe that the Canadian Transportation Agency should be more proactive and not wait until there are complaints to intervene. It needs to monitor the airlines to some degree to proactively ensure that the rules are followed.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I'm going to move now to Ms. De Bellefeuille for the same question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Ms. De Bellefeuille, the question was for you as well.

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

I do in fact, to some degree, share the opinion mentioned earlier. It's important for the Canadian Transportation Agency to have the powers required to be able to take action.

I believe that the report proposed extending some of the agency's powers, including enabling it to be more proactive in circumstances where there has been a major disruption. That could be useful.

As for how to avoid the delays inherent to the legislative process, I think there are several ways of handling that. At the very least, the idea would be to sort out the regulations to make them easier to apply. One could then determine whether the act needed to be reviewed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

Thank you, Ms. De Bellefeuille.

Next we have Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

This is where I get to vent a bit, finally. Two weeks ago I jumped on a plane in Ottawa. I flew to Pearson Airport. I got off said plane and my flight was cancelled, so I was given a Crowne Plaza certificate to stay in a hotel and two $10 vouchers, which are great because they last a long time in the airport, for sure.

I had a 9:40 reservation for the next morning to get on a plane to get to Windsor, which was cancelled. Then I had a 4 p.m. flight to get to Windsor, which was cancelled. Then I had a 7 p.m. flight, which was cancelled. All of that said, at 9:40 a.m. on Sunday, one finally went to Windsor. What did I end up doing? Having some kind of a crystal ball, I decided to jump in an Uber on Friday night so I could get home to my meetings.

That's Chris's frustration, but what's more important than Chris's frustration is the frustration of the business owners—I used to sit on the international trade committee—who this spring flew into Windsor and sat on the tarmac for hours. They were there to finalize a major million-dollar deal for automotive, and they couldn't get a CATSA member or CBSA officer to clear them off the tarmac in Windsor because one of their apps didn't work, through no fault of their own. They then got back in said plane and flew back to the United States, and Canada forever lost their business.

Mr. Lawford, you said that labour shortages have played a major role. I heard you say that, and you went on to say, “there were problems with other aspects of the government”. What other aspects of the government were you talking about, sir?

[John Lawford]

I was referring to some troubles with ArriveCAN and also to do with the staffing of border control, CBSA staffing, on the front end coming in with the scanning. The airports would be better at answering this than I am, but there were certainly not just airline staffing issues. It was unfortunate, but there were knock-on effects for a number of other systems.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lawford.

Mr. Gradek, do you have any comments on that?

[John Gradek]

I think it is something we've all talked about repeatedly over the last four or five months as we have looked at the messes at Pearson and Montréal-Trudeau to do with staffing levels, so it's nothing new. The question really is, what started this whole process and who is to be held accountable for all of these problems? The issue you talked about at Windsor is not within the airline's control. It's really up to the CBSA, with the border patrols, to basically look at staffing and to have the right equipment and the right processes in place.

While it's not as headline-grabbing as what happened at Pearson or Montréal-Trudeau, it was a problem, and there continues to be a problem with staffing levels at various airports across the country. We are still going through the process of trying to find people to staff those roles and to make sure they have the right equipment. It's not going to go away anytime soon, unfortunately. We're still going to be caught in a situation of being short of people.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much.

My time is almost up, is it not?