Transport Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have one minute.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

That's excellent.

Obviously there's a labour shortage across our country in every sector. We're bleeding. We're hemorrhaging, quite frankly. There's nothing more important than labour. We could have the greatest widget in the world and we won't be able to sell it or build it if don't have the proper labour.

With that, I want to say thanks again to the witnesses. I appreciate them. I know this is not going to take a flick of a magic wand, but it's something we need to seriously get to the bottom of for Canadians not only in our own country but travelling abroad.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis. When the holidays come around, I'll be sure to remember the fact that you left 40 seconds on the table.

Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being present today.

My first question is for Mr. Lawford.

How much data do we have about passenger experiences? Do we know how many complaints are registered? How many are successfully resolved? How much compensation is paid out? Is this broken down by airline?

[John Lawford]

On the last question, I don't know if it's broken down by airline. I do know that the total compensation figure is given by the CTA.

For the total number of complaints, there's not a lot of granularity. I'll compare it to the CCTS—again back to telecommunications—where it is broken down by telecommunications carrier, the type of complaint, the period we're talking about and the resolution rate.

Those kinds of details are not, to my knowledge, in the CTA reports, which are a little more high-level. Some more granularity would assist everyone in this project.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Do you think it would be possible to have access to that data, just to give us a better idea?

[John Lawford]

I believe so.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thanks.

In general, what would you recommend in terms of data collection and sharing?

[John Lawford]

Again, I'm back to the telecom regulator that is very open. It provides open access to the spreadsheets the frontline staff use. A few fields are blocked for sensitivity, but otherwise, it's almost exactly what the investigators and the management at the CCTS see.

That could be made available publicly because it's been done in another industry. That would help researchers, consumer advocates and even airlines see where the problems and pain points are.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. De Bellefeuille and Mr. Charbonneau, welcome to the committee.

Some witnesses have already suggested that one of the main problems with the Canadian Transportation Agency's process is that it is modelled on a tribunal, which creates bottlenecks because too many cases are being sent to only a few arbitrators.

Do you agree with this assessment? If so, how would you remedy the problem?

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

Thank you for your question.

The more burdensome the process becomes and the more it resembles a tribunal, the more difficult it is for consumers or passengers to assert their rights. Other witnesses have mentioned that if information were provided to transportation agency employees at the outset, they would be able to deal with the complaints and the system would be faster.

Then again, there would have to be enough staff at the agency to process all the complaints. I don't know whether there are enough employees at the agency. If there were, it would indeed facilitate things.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Ms. De Bellefeuille.

Would you like to add anything, Mr. Charbonneau?

[Jacob Charbonneau]

Whether or not it is an independent tribunal, people making the decisions need to have the power to make these executory. The procedure needs to be simplified. I mentioned that Denmark had introduced a simplified and much faster procedure.

Grouping similar cases together, whether in terms of circumstances or for a specific flight, would also speed up the processing of hundreds of cases at once. It needs to be simple and rapid. Having to wait two years before cases are dealt with discourages people. They can't see the point of pursuing efforts with the agency because they wouldn't be getting their money back for a year or two.

That's what happens with cases dealt with through facilitation or mediation, the first two stages, because all they do is tell people what the airline company is saying, without checking the facts.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Who pays passenger compensation and fines? Since it isn't from the pockets of the CEOs, these types of compensation end up having an impact on all passengers because of higher ticket prices.

How can this unintended consequence be kept under control?

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

I think it's true to say that nothing is ever free. There's always a cost involved.

On the other hand, when you look at the situation in Europe, I don't believe plane tickets are much more expensive, while the compensation is much more straightforward. Everything depends on how things are managed. Are some executives too greedy? That, perhaps, is another story, and I won't comment on it.

It is certainly possible that it would have an impact on ticket prices. However, the current situation is having an impact on passenger rights, which I feel is unacceptable.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

What do you think of the financial support program that the federal government negotiated with the airlines during the pandemic, including the requirement to reimburse passengers?

[Sylvie De Bellefeuille]

Unfortunately, I think it's too little, too late. It took nearly a year to introduce this system. Not only that, but the time period within which people could file a claim for compensation was often very short, only a few weeks in some instances and, I believe, four months at best.

Many people weren't even aware that they had to make a new claim, even though they had been in dispute with their airline for a year. It made no sense to require people to make a new claim. Unfortunately, measures should have been in place much more quickly.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Iacono and Ms. De Bellefeuille.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Charbonneau, I'd like to come back the point I ended on earlier. As I proposed for Bill C‑249, why couldn't things be simplified by automatically offering a refund in the event of a cancelled flight? I understand that it might not work for all cases, but it would certainly deal with many of them.

[Jacob Charbonneau]

I agree that a refund is required. However, when things become automatic, it's important to ensure that the measure is followed.

At the moment, the only automatic refund provided for under the regulations is for overbooking. The compensation has to be paid automatically within the following 48 hours. But even here, there are gaps. So we always need to make sure that the measure is complied with.

Even when a refund is offered, there are other factors to take into consideration. Passengers who learn upon arriving at the airport that they are out of luck because of overbooking should, even if given a refund, quickly take further steps. If portions of the trip had to be covered by land, they will be out of pocket. A new ticket also has to be purchased. I don't know if you've looked at the price of flights recently, but it's been increasing by almost $100 a day. This means that someone who purchased a ticket at a specific price and had it cancelled, the new ticket might cost twice as much. That passenger is caught in a last minute situation at the airport, perhaps without even being able to find another flight.

That's why damages to passengers need to be taken into account. The refund is a good start, and I fully agree with it, but more than that is needed.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

It's true that it's important to also look at the damages.

You mentioned overbooking. Earlier, Ms. De Bellefeuille said that the practice ought never to have been approved. What do you think about it?

[Jacob Charbonneau]

I'm not in the best position to comment on that.

From the consumer standpoint, I think everyone who buys a ticket expects to be able to get on the plane. However, there is also the commercial side, with 5% to 10% of registered passengers failing to show up at the airport. That's why overbooking exists and that's why it's allowed by the government. It's also practised in Europe and the United States. However, different scenarios have to be anticipated.

In the United States, ever since someone, a doctor, was forcefully removed from a United Airlines aircraft a few years ago, up to $10,000 is being offered to people who volunteer to take another flight before attempting to force anyone to get off.

Might there not be a way to work like this, by increasing payments to find volunteers rather than forcing people?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I don't know whether, for…

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have no time left.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.