Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 16th, 2006

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll add my own congratulations to you, Mr. Frost, and to the Legion in general for its work on behalf of not only its members but the larger community. Among national organizations, the Legion is among the most visible in our communities. Almost every month, there's an event or several events in my own riding, and I'm sure it's the same in my colleagues' ridings.

On a veterans bill of rights and an ombudsman, we started this when I had a moment earlier on. To me, a bill of rights, whatever its elements are, is a more global statement, whereas the purpose of an ombudsman is the nitty gritty details of making sure that a bill of rights, whatever it looks like, gets delivered on behalf of the veterans.

I agree with my friend Mr. Perron, and I think Mr. Stoffer got into it as well. There's this line between whether or not an ombudsman can dictate, at any point in a process, that such a thing should happen. Or is it as we see with our provincial ombudsman positions, in that they are advocates? As members of Parliament, we act, maybe in a humble way, as ombudsmen for our constituents on many different matters.

I'm not arguing for or against one, but does there need to be a bill of rights for there to be an ombudsman, just generally? In other words, is it an all-or-nothing scenario, or is there enough need now? I know the Legion is going through the discussion on this, but to those of your members who believe in an ombudsman, is there enough need to justify an ombudsman even without a bill of rights, or are they mutually inclusive issues?

[Jack Frost]

We believe they're inclusive.

If I could just digress for a moment, I'm not answering your question 100% to your satisfaction, but I'm a firm believer that there should be a bill of rights for seniors in this country, just as there should be a bill of rights for the veterans.

Veterans are a special people whom we Canadians and the governments of the day have put possibly in harm's way. They've suffered injuries, they're a special type of people, and we should guarantee that those rights are always enshrined, that they have a bill of rights. We do have a process today that is supposed to ensure they receive due and fair process, and it works very well. But I'm sure that, as it is with every other organization, sometimes things go astray. The ombudsman would be there to bring the pension process back to what it should be. I guess that's my short answer.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

So for you—and I think I saw Mr. Allard nodding his head—they are inextricably linked. You might have a bill of rights without an ombudsman, but you can't have an ombudsman without a bill of rights. Is that a fair statement?

[Jack Frost]

I don't think that's a fair statement. They're closely tied to each other, but you could have an ombudsman...whether it would work as well without a bill of rights. Ideally you should have both.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

One concern that the drafters, the legislators, and you have—and that's why we're trying to get our head around it—is that an ombudsman creates an expectation, as I think it should, that those served by the ombudsman will get a certain quality of service when they make an appeal.

To use a quick example, I had a constituent who had a problem with a bank and complained about how the local manager handled a particular situation. So I helped them access that bank's ombudsman, and I was amazed that the ombudsman had no legal authority to tell the manager to do this or that. But just the fact that the ombudsman made the inquiry opened people's minds to different ways of looking at things, and in that situation it got resolved.

I'm not saying it always did. As long as those served by an ombudsman understand that, I don't think an ombudsman is going to be able to dictate absolutes to people, but by moral suasion, by the inquiries, sort of keep things on the rail.

Is it your sense, as you discuss these matters through the Legion, that an ombudsman would not have legislative or legal authority, but could help veterans by bringing a professional approach to inquiry?

[Jack Frost]

It's our belief—and I've worked in private industry for a long time as well—that the ombudsman's role is to protect. But he brings forward injustices that are occurring, such as in your bank. The bank manager knows that suddenly he has to take a second sober look and say, gee, this guy is right, and not only is he telling me, he's probably telling my boss, so maybe I'd better get in line and get back on the wagon here.

I wouldn't see the ombudsman's jurisdiction as having absolute authority, because then you're going into another dictatorial solution. It has to be reporting.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. St. Denis.

Now it's Mr. Gaudet, for five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good day, gentlemen, and welcome. I'd like your opinion on the Veterans Charter. Should it clearly spell out the responsibilities of veterans? We have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and, as I recall, it does not list the responsibilities of each and every citizen.

[Jack Frost]

The charter should describe what the individual veteran's rights are, especially as to due process. It should guarantee this, and the charter should be short but specific.

It should be capable of being monitored; somebody should be able to come in and specifically say, well, you failed in your obligations to this charter, or do an audit and say, you've done everything encompassed within this charter.

[Pierre Allard]

I'm not sure I understood your question. By “veterans responsibilities”, do you mean the responsibilities of military personnel on duty? Their greatest responsibility is, quite simply, risking their lives for their country.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I agree with you, but that's not what I meant. Immigrants arriving in Canada maintain that they have rights and freedoms. I don't dispute that. However, citizenship also carries with it certain responsibilities. That's what I was getting at.

The same applies in the case of the Veterans Charter. I would like it to spell out clearly the responsibilities of each and every person. Right now, a newly arrived immigrant has more freedoms than I do, even though I was born here 60 years ago. That's where the difference lies.

[Pierre Allard]

The veteran takes on the biggest responsibility possible, namely sacrificing his life for his country. One cannot ask for anything more.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You misunderstand me. I'm talking about subsequent responsibility. Take, for example, a war veteran who wasn't injured and who worked for 20 or 25 years. I have a concern.

The first time I put the question to you was when you appeared along with Mrs....

[Pierre Allard]

And I gave you the same answer.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I'm not satisfied with your answer and that's why I'm belabouring this point. The Charter has little to say on the subject of veterans. However, if it encompasses everything, it becomes a free-for-all. Everyone, veterans included, must have certain responsibilities, otherwise, there will be no end to it.

I'd like to hear your views on this, because I'm trying to get a good grasp of the issue. I agree that there should be a veterans charter, or charter of rights and freedoms. I don't have a problem with that. However, veterans should also have certain responsibilities where the charter is concerned. For example, even though they enjoy certain rights, if they make a false statement, they must be judged accordingly and pay for their actions. That's my opinion.

Do you agree with me or not? That's what I want to know. You're saying you do, but no one heard you.

[Jack Frost]

Well, I guess we're listening. I think the veterans' responsibility is to the country. As a serving member, basically his responsibility ended when he was discharged, and certainly after he was discharged, he has those specific rights. Now, if you're asking if he misrepresents himself, then...we have that happening every day...and I'm not saying it would never happen. What we're saying is that he has the right to due process. If he misrepresents himself, then he opens himself to a due process of civil law.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm concerned that people will hide behind the charter and that at some point, the floodgates will open and people will quite simply be entitled to everything.

[Pierre Allard]

The department does have policies and regulations in place, after all. It encourages members or veterans applying for benefits to follow these policies and comply with the regulations. This could be seen as a responsibility on their part. It's clear that existing procedure must be followed. One cannot simply claim to be entitled on the spot to a particular service. Procedures must be followed.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you.

I have nothing further.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I know, when we're having fun, time flies.

Mrs. Hinton, it's your turn for five, if you wish.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay, thank you. I'm going to share again with another colleague.

I have one comment and two requests.

The comment is that the bill of rights supports the authority of the ombudsman. That would be my vision of it.

The requests are, first, if you're aware of veterans who are members of the Legion, whether they are current serving or past serving members, I would encourage you to ask the past serving members to apply for the VIP before it's too late. One of the reasons I say that is because I have had my heart broken several times, where a veteran who was feeling strong and independent and didn't want help from government, refused to take the help; then he's out shovelling show and he up and drops dead, and now his widow is without the benefits. So if you could encourage people to do that, I would very much appreciate it.

The second thing that came just a few minutes ago was a comment. You talked about modern-day veterans from Afghanistan having problems with critical care beds. I have never heard that. As the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, I'm surprised I haven't, if it is an issue. I would encourage you to please come and see me. We won't take up the time of the committee, but please come and see me. If you can give me specific examples, we'll give you solutions.

I'll go to Mr. Sweet, please.

[Pierre Allard]

There's also the element of what I would call the policy issue here, that access to primary access beds and the major contract facility is not enshrined in your policies. I think it's time to look at that for those people who are injured currently coming out of Afghanistan who might need access for long-term care in that type of facility.