Evidence of meeting #30 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was soldiers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthias Reibold  Defence Attaché, Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

I call to order yet another session of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today we have as our witness Lieutenant-Colonel Matthias F. Reibold, and he's the defence attaché for the embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany, based here in Ottawa.

Sir, just before you present, I'm going to give you some idea of what we're up to and then hand the floor over to you.

Mr. Gaudet, you do not have interpretation? Okay, we're having technical issues.

I could just try to conduct the meeting, but I don't think we'll be allowed to do that, so we're going to suspend for five minutes or so until we have the technician arrive. I apologize.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

I apologize to my French colleagues for what is transpiring today, but it is a technical glitch; it's certainly no omission of intention. So we'll just have to wait for the technician and we'll do the best we can.

Now, of course, to our German guest, I think you're well apprised of the nature of our study. The way it generally works is that we give our witnesses 20 minutes to present--I'm assuming that is what they told you today—and then after that we have a prearranged selection in terms of how the questions come up from the various parties.

Sir, at this stage we will turn the floor over to you, and my Bloc colleagues will do the best they can with regard to translation.

3:35 p.m.

Lieutenant-Colonel Matthias Reibold Defence Attaché, Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany

Honourable members of the Canadian Parliament, I am Lieutenant Colonel Matthias Reibold. I'm the defence attaché of the Federal Republic of Germany to Canada.

It is today a great pleasure and an honour for me to speak in front of you about German so-called veterans affairs.

Good morning ladies and gentlemen, honourable members of the Canadian Parliament.

My name is lieutenant-colonel Matthias Reibold and I hold the position of Defence Attaché of Germany. It is a great honour for me to appear before you today. I know that you are bilingual, but my French is very poor. That is the reason why I will speak to you in English only.

Let me start with the conscripts. A conscript in Germany earns €7.50 per day, an equivalent of $12 Canadian. He gets free food, drinks, accommodation, and equipment and he can travel free on public transport between his home address and his barracks. If he is married, he earns additional money, his flat will be paid by the forces, and he has access to free military health service. If he suffers from an injury that he got during his time of duty, he has free military medical service for up to an additional three months after his term of nine months ends. If he becomes handicapped, he receives a basic pension adjusted to the grade of his disability. In some cases, he may get a one-time compensation—for example, if he's doing a dangerous job like parachuting. If he dies from an accident, his wife gets a widow pension, and his children receive an orphan pension. Also, his parents can receive a parents pension if he has had to take care of them. Additionally, his job is safe. That means he will not lose it while he serves. All other contributions during that time, like health insurance, pension plan, and unemployment insurance, are paid during this time by our government.

Let me make clear that these conscripts will never take part in a mission abroad, like Afghanistan or Kosovo.

I'm coming to the second group. Those conscripts who are willing to serve on a voluntary basis for between 11 and 23 months have the same benefits as every conscript has. Let me explain that it is hard to find an adequate term for these conscripts. I will call them temporary career volunteers. In addition, this soldier earns money in the same way as a regular soldier does, in accordance with his current rank. Those soldiers go on missions abroad. If they suffer an injury during this time of duty, they have free military medical services for at least three years after the time they serve.

While they are serving abroad, three things could happen to such a soldier. First, he could be hijacked or put in captivity. If this happens, he will earn all his money for as long this situation lasts as well as an extra benefit afterwards for what he has suffered. Those who have suffered from severe injuries caused by incidents while they are fulfilling their duties abroad receive a compensation of up to €80,000. If his life, body, or health insurance will not pay because of the war risk clause, the German forces cover up to €250,000.

The third group includes those conscripts who serve for several periods of time, from two years to 20 years. I will call them regular or non-career soldiers. They have the same benefits as the before-mentioned conscripts do. In addition, they receive a full salary, and their equipment is provided them for free. They also have access to free military medical services. For their families, the health costs are paid up to 80% by the forces. If they have to move, it is paid. They get a card that allows them to travel for 50% of the normal cost. If they are separated from their families, every other two weeks the costs for driving or flying home are covered.

The main benefit for these regulars is the care they get when their time ends in the military. After their time has ended, they get extra money, further training, and paid education. Depending on the length of time they served, this can be from seven months to five years after their time of duty has finished. This could be for study at a university or taking an apprenticeship. They receive 75% of their last salary, and the full cost of any educational training is covered. A soldier who has served for more than 12 years can also apply to serve in the government services. This is also regulated by law.

When these soldiers leave the forces, the costs for pension insurance, health insurance, unemployment insurance, and nursing insurance are paid retroactively, so that he or she has no disadvantage with respect to those who worked as civil employees. In case of death, the surviving dependants get all the money he would have received had he finished his contract.

I have to admit it is very difficult to translate specific German synonyms or vocabulary used in our typical bureaucratic language. As far as it is needed, I use expressions that describe the facts and are very usable for common understanding.

The German forces have transformed—and I think quite successfully—from forces to defend my country during the Cold War to forces that are able to fulfill missions worldwide within the context of the United Nations, European nations, and NATO. During this transformation, it was also necessary for us to adapt our laws dealing with the social and health coverage of all our soldiers.

All female and male German soldiers are an integral part of our political system. It is therefore our self-conception that they take part, like all other German citizens, in the common social benefits of our system. But different from other professional groups or categories, the job of a soldier is combined with additional strains and dangers. This makes it important that they have access to special benefits provided by the government. Also, this belongs to our self-conception of our society. This is the reason the German legislator cares, in particular, about the special situation of our soldiers. Therefore, we have adapted or renewed several laws, like the law for soldiers, the law of social benefits for soldiers, and also a relatively new law to help soldiers after they have suffered from an accident, injury, or death in mission.

I'd like to now give you a more detailed overview on this. First, I'd like to mention that we do not use the term “veterans” in Germany. This is because of our conscript system. At this time, every male citizen of my country has to serve for nine months in the German forces when he has reached the age of 18 years. As an alternative, those young men can do an alternative service as conscientious objectors. The total strength of our forces today is 240,000 soldiers.

We categorize our conscripts in five groups. The first group, the conscripts, as mentioned before, have to serve for nine months, and this service is only for male soldiers. Those conscripts later on—and this is the second group—can additionally serve between 11 and 23 months on a voluntary basis. The third group is conscripts who can serve from two years up to 20 years. This group is open to female and male soldiers. The fourth group is the conscripts serving as reservists, and the fifth group--the group I belong to--is made up of conscripts who have decided to become professional soldiers. Every soldier of this group has access to different benefits while they are serving or after they have served.

As for the reservists, all those who have served in those categories receive reservist status after the fact. This relationship as a reservist depends on the rank or status he achieved before he retired. He can be called up for several weeks per year or serve on a voluntary basis in missions abroad, for example. By doing this, he has the same rights as I have mentioned above and also the same duties as any other conscript. His job is also secure while he is serving or doing his reservist duties and he receives the difference between €7.50 per day and the income he normally receives, but only up to a certain income. You can imagine managers' salaries; we do not pay those high differences.

Regarding conscripts as professional soldiers, most conscripts deciding to serve as professional soldiers have to serve until the age of 61. Some of them have the right to retire at 56. They have the same benefits as mentioned above. After they retire, they receive a pension of 72% of their last income. If a professional is no longer able to fulfill his duties and must retire, it becomes a pension of between 66% and 72%, depending on his length of duty. A widow's pension is 60% monthly, and an orphan's pension is up to 30%. For example, as a lieutenant-colonel I have to work for 42 years because my retirement age is now 61.

Due to the dangers of missions, Germany passed a new law in 2007. This law manages how to deal with soldiers, functionaries, judges, and civil employees of our forces who suffered from severe injury. A severe injury is meant to have a grade of disability of more than 50%. This law defines several measures. The first is to become additionally qualified to compete as a disabled person with non-disabled persons to have a fair chance on the employee market. Also, all those conscripts previously mentioned in the different troops have the right to become professionals after they have suffered severe injuries in our forces. They will be employed by the forces.

In Germany we have a secretary of state or deputy minister who is responsible for veterans', reservists', or conscripts' affairs in Germany. Our ombudsman is also ordered by Parliament to ensure that all those legal affairs are being watched and controlled. We also have a general who is responsible for those affairs within the military.

To sum up, after 1999 we went to Kosovo on our first mission abroad. We realized we had to change a lot. Our bureaucracy was too complicated, no longer manageable, and we were faced with public pressure. As I mentioned before, those measures, especially the last one, give our soldiers and civilian employees the necessary coverage while they are on duty for their country.

This ends my short presentation. I am more than happy to take your questions now.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Danke.

We will now go to the Liberal Party of Canada, and Mr. Russell, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Lieutenant-Colonel Reibold. It's great to have you here. When we spoke earlier, I mentioned that one of the communities I represent is Happy Valley-Goose Bay. The German air force in particular and our community have had a strong relationship in terms of the training that was conducted there for many years. You will still see the Germany flag flying prominently in several locations in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. Certainly the German air force was always a part of our community, and many personnel still are a part of our community. We hope to have you back sooner rather than later.

You talked about various categories of military personnel and the benefits that were associated with them and you gave a very good description of that. Do you have a separate category for veterans? How would you describe a veteran? Are the benefits similar for those who are retired from the military in some fashion? I'm just wondering how you designate veterans in terms of the German military.

3:50 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

Sir, as I've mentioned before, we do not use the term “veterans”, and our reservist system is absolutely not comparable to yours. The integration of veterans in your society is outstanding. I've had a lot of chances to attend occasions where veterans were involved.

When we talk about comparable things like veterans, we are talking about reservists totally, but the duty time for reservists ends. For example, if you are a conscript for nine months and you become a reservist, your time of duty as a reservist ends at the age of 40. If you are serving for a time of up to 20 years, depending on your rank, the latest point at which you end your time of duty as a reservist is 50. After that, you are out of the forces and you are no longer a reservist.

All those who are reservists have the title behind their rank--for example, lieutenant-colonel of reserve. That is the only system we have. But if you've reached the retirement age for reservists, you are no longer a member of the forces and are not a veteran in those cases.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Okay. It's much different from the Canadian system, that's for sure.

What do you think are the advantages of our system compared to your own, when you have the chance to size them up? What type of direction might the German government be going in, in terms of its recent engagements in Kosovo and Afghanistan, where there's a different role being played by the German military?

3:55 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

Just let me describe it. With our conscript system, we are able to call up to duty, if we want to, in the worst case you can imagine, up to 10 million reservists. Every young male has served in our country. But on the other hand, to be honest and to be sure, sir, a soldier who has served for only nine months cannot identify himself with the forces in the same way as your professionals or your retired soldiers do, or the huge reserve component that you have in Canada. The identification with veterans who are in your society and the support your society gives those veterans is incredibly high, I think, from the things I have viewed so far here in Canada.

On the other hand, we have the principle of the citizen in uniform. This is an old principle from Prussian times, from Frederick the Great or from Scharnhorst, who was mentioned before. The thinking behind every male citizen of a country is that he is a native defender of his country too. That's the principle we are following.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

You had a contingent of the German air force in Goose Bay.

3:55 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

What would that contingent typically be made up of in terms of the structure?

I've met a lot of your air force personnel. Some were there as nine-month reservists. Some were beyond the nine months and up to two years—a lot were two years. But what would typically make up such a training component?

3:55 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

The training component depends on the specialization he has. We have a lot of reservists who we bring into our forces because of their qualifications. For example, think of somebody who is able to repair an air conditioning system. You don't have them in the forces and normally you do not train them. You have to hire those guys and bring them up. You give them reserve status or you give them a time contract, those conscripts I've mentioned before, of up to two years or whatever is needed. We take them into our forces to have those specialized soldiers in our crews.

Especially in the air force, it is necessary to keep those qualifications. That's why we are using or hiring those guys as multiplicators for young generations that are coming up, so that we can hold on and follow on as always with the young generations in order to keep those qualifications.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you.

When can we look forward to your coming back? I'll have a table spread.

3:55 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

We hope we can do a little bit next year.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you. Wonderful.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you, Mr. Russell.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Perron, who is with the Bloc Québécois, for seven minutes.

June 5th, 2008 / 3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Good morning, lieutenant-colonel. I appreciate your French, which is remarkable.

To start with, I would like to deal with something that bothers me somewhat. You talked about a period of 9 to 20 months service for conscripts, and I wondered why young women were not admitted, given that for women, the minimum service period is two years?

On another subject, if I understood correctly, insurance companies are paying the cost of health care services provided to injured soldiers, and you are responsible for paying the full cost of insurance premiums. I hope that your insurance companies are not functioning the same as those in Canada, because in the case of the later, the higher the premium, the less compensation is paid up.

Should we worry about the service that is provided to these people?

4 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

On your first question, our constitution does not allow a woman to serve in the forces. We say this is the last male domain we have so far.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Macho.

4 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

Yes, sir.

A couple of years ago, a young lady went to the federal court and fought for the right to serve in the forces. She won and was the first to serve in our forces. She opened all branches and units of the forces to women. Before that, women could only serve in the medical health service.

To be honest, we have not changed our constitution to say we will take women in the same way as we take men into our services. I don't know when this will happen. I can't answer that question yet. But women have the right to serve on a voluntary basis, and then to start with a contract from two years up to 20 years if they like.

On your second question, in the German system all life insurance or health insurance contracts have a war risk clause. That means that if somebody is killed, badly injured, or wounded in war circumstances like enemy fire or being hijacked, those insurance contracts will not pay. To have equality between our civil society and soldiers who are serving on missions under the war risk, our government has decided to pay insurance up to €250,000. It is not worth it to make a policy for €1 million, because the government will only pay up to €250,000. This is the law to compensate for the war risk clause.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

In am enormously intrigued and interested by another matter, that is the situation of young people who are coming back from a theatre of operations and who are suffering from what I call a psychological injury or the post-traumatic stress syndrome. In view of your experience in Afghanistan, in Kosovo and in Congo, among others, I would like you to tell me whether some of your young recruits coming back home are suffering from the post-traumatic stress syndrome and, if so, what care you are providing them.

4 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

It is a clear and definite yes. Our rate is, in the same way, as high as your rate.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

What is your percentage?

4:05 p.m.

LCol Matthias Reibold

Our percentage, we say, is about 2% to 5% per every crew coming back from the missions.

We have suffered so far. I served as a commander of the German PRT in Kunduz in north Afghanistan for eight months. I brought home with me four deaf soldiers and 32 soldiers who suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome.

But you have to always bear in mind that the stress syndromes are not always seen during the mission or directly at the end of the mission. This is a long-term disease. We still have soldiers who were on missions in 1999 in Kosovo who are starting to have post-traumatic stress syndrome today. We have also had to learn to deal with them, because it was not an accepted disease in our society, and nobody thought about those syndromes that came up. It's always the same with those new social diseases, like so-called burnout syndrome or something else like that. We have had to learn to deal with those things.

In 2000, when we had our first facts on those soldiers, we started to do an international study. We had access to the American studies of PTSD. Then we started to educate doctors and also those guys who deal with mental diseases...I'm sorry, I do not have the word for them at the moment. They are trained to deal with those soldiers psychologically as well as on a preventive basis.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

You could call it a psychological wound, une blessure psychologique.