Evidence of meeting #23 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
And that's understandable. But what happens, though, when they fall into the category that was raised by many members, that they kind of collect dust for a few years and nobody seems to care about them? What happens in that context?
4 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
Well, in actual fact, a lot of these medals end up with collectors. I know Mr. Stoffer sometimes is not too happy with collectors, but collectors actually take care of medals. They take care of collections.
4:05 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
I'm sorry I raised that, but it is a factor.
4:05 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
I know he's very touchy, but it is a fact that they actually do a lot to preserve the medals. A lot of these collectors--probably the majority of them--are actually former military people who take a really keen interest.
I'll give you a good example of what happens with medals, decorations, and orders. We received at our national headquarters a collection of World War I and World War II hat badges. It was probably the most complete hat badge collection we've ever seen. It was squirrelled away in the downstairs of a Legion branch that went out of business and asked Dominion Command to take over the hat badge collection.
It's such a significant collection that we've actually given it to the War Museum because they had never seen that many hat badges of that era. So we are in the process of cleaning it all up, and then we're going to go through the process of displaying it properly. It actually sat in an old back shed somewhere. For years and years nobody could see it. That's where these collections are.
The same thing is going to happen with a lot of these medals. A lot of these medals are going to end up squirrelled away in drawers somewhere, whether in a family drawer, in a collector's drawer, or, through mass of numbers, in a slide-out drawer at a museum because they just don't have room to display all of these.
So, yes, it's a huge problem. And I think even just discussing this bill brings the education aspect forward. It helps to educate Canadians on the magnitude of the issue. Do we need legislation? Does my right to be able to determine where my medals go need to be legislated? I would prefer that it not be.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
Okay, but let me pursue that, because everybody around here would agree with everything you're saying. Those who are responsible Canadians aren't going to let happen what we watch happen every day--that is, medals disappearing somewhere into the market.
I don't think anything that Gary's brought forward, as we've discussed at committee, suggests we'd ever want to interfere with what is legitimately done by the organizations and groups who are trying to preserve the heritage and importance of those medals and orders. But there a number of people who don't share your ethics, who would just as easily look at those medals as currency. And I hate to see Peter and I agreeing on this, but we have a problem with that, which goes beyond your right to do what you want with your medals or somebody who wants to make....
I guess what I'm asking then is what do you think about those who are outside the very groups and organizations that want to preserve and honour these things? How do you deal with them? They may not even want to be educated.
4:05 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
I think we'll go back to what Mr. Stoffer said at the beginning. There are people who have the Order of Canada, and by mandate your family is supposed to return the Order of Canada on your death. Is that happening?
4:05 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
Probably not. So why would you have legislation that can't be enacted? You already have it there with a particular medal, the Order of Canada.
What I'm saying is that if you want to have something that you—
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
It hasn't come up yet, has it?
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
No, but I'm talking about the currency side. Someone is breaking the law very clearly if they do that, and I think we can't lose the concept of what we're talking about, which is that we don't want these things in some people's hands to be considered as currency.
On that point, I'm sure we must be agreeing.
4:05 p.m.
Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
I'm having some fundamental problems. If you pass a law that's not enforceable, the law doesn't mean very much. Yet within this proposed law, you're saying here in clause 4 that every person who contravenes this law is “liable to a fine in an amount that does not exceed five times the fair market value of the insignia”.
So if Mr. Shankland were still alive and had determined, as was his right, that he wanted to sell his medals, he could have been fined $1.5 million? I have a problem with that.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for joining us.
Mr. White, it's very touching to hear you talk about the respect you have for your medals. That's an important distinction. It's an honour the country has bestowed upon you for your service.
You talked about education. I would like to go a little off topic. We just talked about Canadians who are considered irresponsible for selling their medals. Would you not agree that not all veterans come back healthy and that, for some of them, selling a medal could be a somewhat attractive prospect? We can try to educate people, but education only goes so far.
Mr. Stoffer was saying that future generations will perhaps not have the same respect for those medals. So, don't you think that education has its limits?
4:10 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
There are limits. Even through legislation, there are limits to what can be achieved. So where do you go from there?
If an individual determines that it might be in his best interest to sell his medals off to a collector, so he may have a more comfortable lifestyle, is that his choice? Maybe it is his choice. Maybe it's the way he sees that he can better his lifestyle or make himself comfortable for a little while longer. It's still his choice. So there are limits.
4:10 p.m.
Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
There are certainly limits, but you haven't even determined any in this bill. You state the following:
The Governor in Council may make regulations
(a) identifying insignia of cultural significance [...]
You did not define the notion of “cultural significance.”
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
I would like to point out that I was not the one who failed to define the limits.
4:10 p.m.
Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
The bill failed to do so.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
The bill did not define the limits.
Bill C-473 was tabled in November 2009, during the previous parliamentary session. You say you made recommendations in December 2009. Could you tell us approximately how many recommendations there were? It just seems that they were never brought to our attention. And if those recommendations were all feasible and were applied, would you adopt the bill?
4:10 p.m.
Dominion Secretary, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
Most of the recommendations made in 2009 are the same as the ones on page 2
regarding terminology, responsiveness to feedback, acceptable museums, funding, and the obligation to acquire. And of course we do have the one overriding obligation regarding who has rights over the medal, the individual's right to determine his property rights.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
So, what you're saying is that we cannot,
it's not enforceable, and not only is it not enforceable, it goes against your rights.
