Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Allard.

Good afternoon, Mr. White. Do you understand French?

[Brad White]

A little.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You do represent a number of legions. Is the position you're presenting here today unanimously accepted among all the legions you represent? Have you held consultations with all the legions to agree on the position you're presenting to us? What democratic process was used to arrive at this kind of position?

[Brad White]

I will answer in English so I can express myself better, if that's okay with you.

The process that we have to determine positions such as this is a national one, our convention every two years. Obviously, it's at that convention where we create and discuss policy for the Royal Canadian Legion. The Legion, as a bottom-up organization, listens to what is being said at its branches and discusses those issues on the floor of the convention, and that basically sets our policy and positioning for the next term or cycle, as we call it, for two years.

Issues such as this, when they're out of that cycle and not a normal part of the cycle, are discussed through our dominion executive council, which is our governing body outside of the convention. So we will take issues like this to our dominion executive council, and we have taken this particular position to our council and they have debated it. They are representatives from all of our provincial commands across Canada. So we have the ten provincial presidents who are there, we have our senior elected officers of the Royal Canadian Legion who are there, and they discuss these issues and the presentations that we make. And it is that body that gives us those directions in-between conventions.

That is basically our policy process for discussing issues such as this.

[Pierre Allard]

I would like to add something. In this case, we held consultations not only internally, but also with outside organizations. This position is shared by our colleagues from other veterans' organizations.

The opinions expressed today are shared by the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada (ANAVETS), the Canadian Naval Air Group, the Royal Canadian Naval Association, the Naval Officers Association of Canada, the Hong Kong Veterans Commemorative Association, the RCMP Veterans Association, the National Aboriginal Veterans Association, the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, and the Gulf War Veterans Association of Canada.

So we're not only talking about the opinion of the legion, but also of all these other veterans' organizations.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Do all the groups you just listed endorse your position unanimously ?

[Pierre Allard]

Yes.

[Brad White]

We normally will take a position when we're asked to appear, and we've said this to the other veterans organizations. We will take a position such as this, we will distribute it to all of those organizations and ask for their input. If they agree with that position, then we're more than happy to present their names along with our presentation. We in no way limit their ability to speak on their own behalf, to come forward to the sessions or any of the committees, such as this, to speak on their own behalf. If they agree with our position, we'll mention it.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I would like to ask a question about the bill that is currently being debated. As you already mentioned, museums that cannot afford to buy medals are a serious problem. This has already been discussed by us and by others. Looking past this key issue, do you believe that, following your consultations, certain amendments could be made to the bill to make it more sustainable and acceptable for the many stakeholders you have mentioned?

[Pierre Allard]

I would suggest that—

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Or is this a bill that we should simply—

[Pierre Allard]

We at the Royal Canadian Legion and other organizations feel that this bill, and I quote from our brief, “would infringe on the rights of Canadians to own and dispose of their private property as they see fit. This is a right that should not be trampled on lightly.”

It simply goes against the bill's objective.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

It's somewhat similar to Canada's Cultural Property Export and Import Act. Have you looked into this?

[Pierre Allard]

We have looked into it and we suggest that you simply amend that act, since this bill contains criteria that are not very well defined; for instance, when it comes to determining what is culturally important.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll have Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming, and please give our best to Pat Varga and to Vice-Admiral Larry Murray as well. I think he is a great replacement for Charlie Belzile as honorary president. I thought that was a fine choice you all made.

On the bill itself, my support began for it when I spoke to the member proposing the bill. What he's attempting is to respect the significance of certain medals and so on and stop them from leaving the country. There's one thing I slightly disagree with, and I know that I've had this discussion with the Royal Canadian Legion before. When medals are presented to members of our armed forces or policing services for the various acts they've done--their CDs, combat medals, Victoria Cross, whatever.... I got this from Smokey Smith before he passed away. He was proud of his Victoria Cross, but he was just as proud of all the other medals he received. Yet it would be the Victoria Cross, if it came up for auction, that everyone focused on. Yet he himself appreciated all the medals he received.

One thing I've said repeatedly, literally forever, is that this is not currency the government gives you. It's not hundred-dollar bills hanging from your chest. These medals are significant for the fact of service, honour, valour, duty, and everything else. Most importantly, a lot of you wear them because 118,000 men and women never got a chance to wear theirs, because they passed on, many in the act of service.

My own Bill C-208, which I think is easier to understand, basically would restrict these medals from ever being sold or turned into currency. It's very similar to what the Government of Canada has with the Order of Canada. You talk about the property rights aspect of it. But if you receive the Order of Canada, when you die, by law, that Order of Canada has to go back to the Governor General or back to the government. You cannot sell it. Now, many of them don't go back. They're hidden, and kids keep them, and nobody really goes and looks for them.

If the Order of Canada can be restricted, then why can't certain other medals or decorations be restricted?

I sympathize with the private property aspect of it, but if you're currently serving and you receive medals, you cannot sell them while you're currently serving. You can only do with them what you want once you leave the service. If you're serving right now, and you have six or seven medals, you cannot sell them. You cannot do with them whatever you want. You have to be out of the service before you can do that. As you said, you choose to do what you like with your medals.

My belief, and I'm not sure if the author of the bill supports it 100%, and I'd like your clarification on this, is that I have a problem with medals given to our heroes in our country eventually turning into cash. To me, that demeans the medal. It demeans the act of what that person has done.

I'll give you an example in closing. There was a recent gentleman in Quebec, one of Quebec's most decorated soldiers, and he died. His son Charles received the medals, and he was going to sell them. He was asked what he was going to do with the money, and he said, “Maybe buy a car”. His family was opposed to his selling these medals, but he had the right to do with them what he wanted. So this man's valour, everything he did for his country, his province, and his people, is now worth a car. I was just so shocked by that. Really, in the end, if you sell these medals, that money can do whatever.

I'd just like your comments on that.

If you could, have you made recommendations regarding the Cultural Property Export and Import Act in regard to helping the honourable member and the rest of us achieve some of the things he would like to achieve and I'd like to achieve, and at the end, getting the Legion's support on that?

Thank you.

[Brad White]

My understanding of the act is simplistic, but I understand that the act basically restricts the export of a medal for 90 days to ensure that those organizations that may want to obtain it or retain it have that ability.

I don't think the act says specifically what is a medal of significance. I think that's the question that you have to ask here. What is a medal of significance? I think we go back to that as well.

To answer your first question, on whose right it is, medals are awarded to individuals for recognition of acts of service. I know, because I come from a third-generation military family. We have that sort of ethos within my family that tells us how we handle ourselves with our medals and what we do with our medals. I understand fully that there are people out there who don't have that same sort of background or historical significance, impact, or understanding of what it means to be awarded a medal, such as a medal of bravery or a medal of honour.

So how do you educate people is really the question. How do you educate people to understand what the significance of a medal is? Do you educate people by legislating it to them? Or do you do it some other way? I think in our day and age when people talk about government interference in our lives we have too many people who say it's the government's issue. Well, now you're making it a government issue. Everybody complains that every time something goes wrong the government has to sort it out and they are not taking responsibility for their own actions. So do we have to legislate everything? This is my question back to you.

People need to understand, they need to be educated, and they need to be responsible, and they can only be responsible if they've been educated. That would be my response.

[Pierre Allard]

I might want to add a couple of things to that.

I think part of the challenge with Bill C-208 was that the last clause basically said:

Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

So here we are. We have private rights and we have the burden of potentially suffering an offence punishable on summary conviction. I think that's a bit of the challenge.

I think the solution resides in what my colleague was saying. We have to not pass legislation. We have to encourage veterans, their heirs and successors to understand that orders, decorations, and medals are valuable items of their family history. I think we have to encourage the donation of ODMs to museums or other institutions, and we even have to encourage a partnership with collectors in order to help preserve the memories of veterans through their ODM.

I think the Legion is ready to do its part in that education process, but we urge you not to pass this legislation.

I talked about the potential cost to the museums. When we addressed the sale of the Shankland's Victoria Cross group that was purchased by the Canadian War Museum, the purchase cost was approximately $244,000. Actually, that equated to $288,000 because there was a buyer's premium factored in. This was within the pre-auction estimate of $220,000 to $330,000 Canadian.

These medals will indeed remain in Canada; however, this particular issue has identified what the potential cost of passing such a bill would be to even museums that have strong financial backing.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kerr.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us today. We appreciate your being here.

There are a couple of things I'd like to raise, because there is a conflict in your presentation between having the rights and being concerned about whether the bill goes far enough. I want to clear that up, because that's an issue of principle that I think is worth discussing.

There is one thing that concerns us. I don't think everybody has the values you have, as both service and Legion people, in terms of recognizing the importance of keeping these medals within the Canadian context. Obviously, many people do that in a private collection and do that within family circumstances, but many don't. We don't think simply letting it go, which has gone on for some years, is a resolution. I'm glad to hear you're prepared to cooperate with us, and I know you are in the education. I think education is a good second step, after this legislation, but I do want to follow that further. Gary brings forward, I think, the intent, and we all talked about it and all agreed in principle. It's a very positive thing for somebody to step up as a private member and raise this and say, “Listen, there's a problem out there. There's a difficulty. It ain't perfect, but here's a suggested course of action.”

I'm far more comfortable, obviously, than you are in supporting the intent of the bill. I don't see it as a big negative out there. When we're Victoria Crosses and that, those are covered. Those aren't going anywhere, and we know that. But as a general principle, you're not going to have a law that's going to protect every single medal. You're always going to have some underground economy. I think the intent of those medals from the past is covered, unless you're saying the culture and import act is totally wrong and should be done away with as well, which is a whole different discussion.

I don't think this is trying to fill in all the gaps so much as it is taking a step forward with the public, with Canadians, to say, “Listen, there is a gap in what happens in the Canadian culture today”. Part of it is education, and I understand and appreciate that, and I agree totally--but what I'd ask first, then, is whether the principle of ownership and private protection and non-interference is the larger concern here.

[Brad White]

I would say yes, very much so.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Okay.

Can you just elaborate a little bit on that? Any legislation of any type is going to run into a conflict in that regard.

[Brad White]

I believe that I fall under the Charter of Rights, as a Canadian citizen. These are medals that have been awarded to me. They're mine.