Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2011

[Guy Parent]

I would not want to state an opinion about that. Is there really no psychiatrist or psychiatrist at the Sainte-Anne hospital? That surprises me, because it is the coordinating centre for operational stress clinics. I have not necessarily read the details, but I would be surprised if it had come to that point.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You were the Director of Investigations for Veterans Affairs. What does the job of Director of Investigations entail?

[Guy Parent]

I could ask my colleague, the current Director of Investigations, to answer your question.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You held the position longer.

[Guy Parent]

In fact I held the position of Director of the Research and Investigations Section, and one leads to the other. From the research, we determine the systemic subjects, that are used later...

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Could you be more concrete? What kind of research is it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We're a little out of our timeframe here. We're now moving.

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Parent, for coming today. That was a good presentation. The study we're undertaking involves a massive area, so I'm going to keep to one particular area that I think you might have some insight into.

In dealing with mental stress in the Canadian Forces, is the biggest problem a lack of resources or the difficulty that members have in getting help as they go through the bureaucratic maze?

[Guy Parent]

I would say it's a bit of both. For instance, the reason we are looking at education and access to benefits right now is that we want to get people in there. Once people are in, the management of their issues is at least doable. But unless they're in the program, nothing is happening. So the access is important. It needs to be done as soon as possible, and it needs to be efficient. That's why we're keeping an eye on the transformation, to see how effective they're going to be at mitigating the difficulties of processing.

In the other areas, like managing stress, it's difficult.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

That's all right. We can move on, because I agree with you 100% when it comes to the education aspect, and the current Chief of the Defence Staff has done a great job in initiating some programs that have started to turn the tide on it. But I would say, in my humble opinion, it's far from commonplace for members to be able to step up and say they have mental stress disorder and they need to get help for it. It's usually cyclical. It usually affects them or their families for many years before they ever do come to that conclusion.

One of my problems is when they do come to that conclusion, if they're a current member, getting through the bureaucracy can be difficult and confusing, and often the answer they get back, the explanation for the reasoning of the decisions that are made, is very hard for members to understand. The answers are very succinct. They don't give you a lot of explanation, which accelerates the mental stress.

Would you agree with that?

[Guy Parent]

I certainly would agree that the decision letters, for instance, are not very well drafted or explained, the reasons why or why not, and that's something the department has been working on, to simplify the correspondence to clients so they do understand where they stand as far as the decision that was made. So that's certainly one of the concerns we've identified.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Absolutely. It's even more frustrating for our retired members. It often takes them five, ten, fifteen years to first of all admit they have these issues and then try to address them. They end up dealing with Sun Life or insurance companies, and that is a whole new maze of bureaucracy with far less help, it seems, for these members.

Do you have any recommendations on how we could better deal with this? Should we partner with the insurance company that's looking after this? Because quite frankly, in my opinion, it has not been very satisfactory at this point.

[Guy Parent]

I think one of the aspects that could be looked at, especially by Veterans Affairs Canada, is again a matter of education. The more time people have to tell their stories, the harder it becomes for them. So there is certainly a requirement for the initial contact to be well documented so people don't have to constantly go back into theatre, in their memories, to retell the stories. I think that's an important point.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

This comes right into the problem you get for both physical and mental injuries. Often they say these guys didn't document it properly. They jumped off the truck and twisted their ankle and went on doing their job. They didn't stop and fill out the proper paperwork. It's the same with mental stress disorders, except it's accentuated because you can't identify the exact moment of injury. I would be interested if you can give us any recommendations in writing on how we deal with that and how we can better assist the bureaucracy with some suggestions in dealing with that.

I know I'm getting short on time, so I just want to make one other quick comment. I agree with Mr. Stoffer. We need to be able to get these people where they're gathering, as you were mentioning, Mr. Parent. One of my fears is not only Ste. Anne's Hospital, but the Legion Halls themselves. When our World War II veterans fade away, these Legions need to be robust places for our current members to go so we have a place to have access to them and to hear their experiences. I would be interested in hearing from you about how we make that more pertinent as well.

[Guy Parent]

I think it's a good concept. It's something like the American USO types of institutions or buildings, where people congregate. In fact, they do the same thing in Quebec City, at Place-Laurier, I think. All the veterans congregate there for coffee and they tell their stories and that's very helpful. So I think that's a concept.... You could go beyond that in the future and maybe have Legion Halls on bases to bring back the veterans to the military population.

Yes, I agree. They need a place to congregate and exchange.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Lobb, and then Mr. Lamoureux.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

You've made a lot of suggestions and recommendations today. Could you sum it up for us and maybe give us a couple or three examples of the most easily attainable wins we can have dealing with these issues, specifically around clearing up some of the red tape? Because we want to make sure when someone comes forward that we're getting them through the system as fast as we can to get treated. So from your position and from the research you've done, what are a couple of wins we can have in a short amount of time after this report is complete?

[Guy Parent]

I go back, I think, to the concept of dealing with immediate needs, and then dealing with subsequent or ongoing needs afterwards, because again, the complexity of the process doesn't allow for a response to immediate needs. It takes 20 weeks to get a decision, but in the meantime people require benefits and treatment and that sort of thing. So there's some improvement to be done there on the part of Veterans Affairs Canada in looking after these people while they are awaiting a decision, that sort of thing.

Other recommendations.... I think a few things have been mentioned already to certainly solidify the joint efforts between DND and Veterans Affairs Canada to clean up the transition, and certainly the tracking is again one of the recommendations that need to be looked at as an immediate need of the community.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's a good segue into my second question, because I was going to deal with tracking. It doesn't matter if you're a large corporation tracking your customers or you're Veterans Affairs tracking the veterans you're trying to serve. We know the department has expressed difficulties in achieving this. In your research that you've done, is there another country or jurisdiction where you've seen success, whether it's through the database for the computer software or actually with the implementation?

[Guy Parent]

Not that I know of. We haven't done research in that area specifically. I think we've concentrated on the transition problems and the tracking problems here in Canada. Having had the experience with National Defence when I was with the ombudsman's office there, and having been involved in the OSISS report there, even at that point in time, I believe one of the recommendations in the first report was to have some kind of a national database that could track people from the time they joined until they retired.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Retired General Dallaire, now Senator Dallaire, was here in this room and testified about three months ago. He talked about the tremendous success, in his opinion, of the OSISS networks. Is there anything you'd like to see with the OSISS networks? Would you like to see them expanded, broadened, more sharply focused? Is there anything in there you'd like to see improved?

[Guy Parent]

What is in place now is certainly effective. There's always room for improvement. I think they're short on resources. The relationship between district offices, for instance, and an OSISS coordinator might be a little bit better so that they're known as a resource, certainly as an immediate need resource. Again, I go back to education. Are all Veterans Affairs Canada staff aware of the existence of the OSISS and the capability that they have? I would recommend that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We'll move to Mr. Lamoureux, please.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Is it fair to say that in order for the government to meet the needs of our veterans they have to have the data? Mr. Lobb picked up on the point in terms of the tracking deficiencies. As an ombudsman, you provide a report. Is that highlighted? Is it fair to say that because of tracking deficiencies we're not able to properly deal with adequately supporting the vets?

[Guy Parent]

Certainly. One area is the self-representation aspect. The onus is on the individual to come forward and tell us what he's suffering from, whereas in fact the onus should be on the department in saying “We used you; we hurt you. Now we'll keep track of you until you are gone.” That's an important aspect of it. It's essential that the tracking be done by the department right from the start.