Veterans Affairs Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Bernard Butler]

I don't have a timeline in front of me, Mr. Chair, but I can tell you that in the implementation plan for the process, it's fairly aggressive. We're contemplating, within the first, literally, weeks and early months of passage of the legislation, to engage in that process and to be ready to go. If we look at this population, it's an elderly population in the normal course. They are a low-income group. They are the remaining veterans and survivors of the Second World War and the Korean War. They're a group we really need to get to. We understand that, to ensure that they benefit as quickly as possible from these improvements.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

At the risk of being repetitive—and I'm sorry if I'm asking you to be repetitive; you explained yourself very clearly in your opening comments. Once again, I want to understand the relationship between the war veterans allowance and the Pension Act. Just clarify that for me one more time, if you would, please.

[Bernard Butler]

Essentially, under these legislative amendment proposals, one will simply say that under the War Veterans Allowance Act there will no longer be a deduction made for disability pension benefits. In other words, the references to the Pension Act will be essentially removed. So it will not be taken into account when the department calculates what is allowable income for the purpose of the WVA.

On the Pension Act side, there would be sort of a similar type of adjustment to the act to make it clear that benefits paid under that program, because they're not going to be offset any longer, have to be managed in a slightly different way than they have in the past, particularly as it relates to withholding disability pension benefits when they are awarded back in time.

Under the Pension Act as it's currently constructed, you could make application today for a disability pension. If you were a traditional war veteran, as an example, you could actually be paid back in time up to three years to the date of application. Under the act currently, there is a withholding provision to avoid overpayments of the war veterans allowance. Those will now be removed because there will be no need to do that. So these are simply adjustments to the legislation, all focused at removing any reference to withholding of disability pension payments and calculating it for purposes of WVA benefits.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Last in this round, we have Mr. Chicoine for five minutes, please.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to share my time with Ms. Mathyssen.

I have a general question for Mr. Butler.

I remember reading the decision in question at the time. It was quite difficult to understand. We know that there will be no further deductions for income replacement.

Would certain parts of the Supreme Court decision we have not discussed today enlighten us on the decision that was handed down?

[Bernard Butler]

Mr. Chair, I think if I understand the question, there's reference to a Supreme Court proceeding in this context. To my knowledge, the Government of Canada actually had made a decision to honour or respect and recognize the Federal Court decision. In fact, no appeal was taken from that ruling, so effectively the ruling of the Federal Court is binding and will be applied by the Government of Canada as the way forward. So there will not be an appeal of that Manuge decision.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Today we discussed several aspects of that decision. I don't have it here, but I would like to know if certain points in that decision need to be clarified. After all, it's drafted in legal language which is fairly difficult to understand.

[Bernard Butler]

As I was suggesting earlier, the decision was focused on offsets of Veterans Affairs Canada disability pensions paid under the Pension Act against the SISIP program. This is a program of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces, and it hinged on a very complex discussion of the provisions of that policy. It's an insurance policy, and that's why it was so complex.

As to the effect on Veterans Affairs Canada programming, the comments were fairly straightforward. As I understand it, and I stand to be corrected, I think what the Federal Court ruled when they looked at Veterans Affairs Canada's approach to the Pension Act was that the legislation is actually very clear in how it's worded. The rationale is very structured and the offset did not offend the legislation, and therefore it left open the question of what the government would do in respect of that.

In the end, the government simply made a decision that it would honour the spirit and intent of the decision and cease offsetting these benefits on the Veterans Affairs Canada side. That's essentially what led to the regulatory changes in the fall as they relate to earnings loss and Canadian Forces income support, and what has now led to the proposed legislative changes to the War Veterans Allowance Act and the Pension Act.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Thank you.

I will now yield the floor to Ms. Mathyssen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

You have one minute.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thanks very much.

Since I have a very limited time, I have a couple of quick points. First, we have some concerns about clause 156—Mr. Casey alluded to it—and the reality of offsets where there are provincial programs in place. You've agreed to provide a list of these, but do you have any plans to discuss this with the provinces? It seems to me that our veterans are certainly not getting rich on these pensions and they need all of the support they can get.

The second point I wanted to raise is that there seems to be a consensus among the government members that there is a need for expedience to get this particular part of the budget bill passed. Would it make sense to separate it out so that we could deal with it more directly and effectively, rather than making it part of an extremely cumbersome budget bill?

[Bernard Butler]

With respect to clause 156, I can tell you that this legislation is within the jurisdiction and mandate of Veterans Affairs Canada. That's what we are focused on and that's what we're targeting. We do not intend to go into provincial jurisdictions to look at how they do their programming, and I'm not sure how they manage this income issue.

As to the second question you raise, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the strategy of bringing this forward. I can tell you that because it did require legislative amendment, this is certainly one way of bringing it forward to the House and having it dealt with within this current timeline.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Butler.

I understand this will be the end of the questioning of this witness.

That being the case, Mr. Butler, I want to thank you very much for appearing this morning. As always, your testimony was very succinct. If there's a future detail you want to send along to the committee, I expect that you will provide it in writing.

[Bernard Butler]

We will indeed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes. We have new witnesses coming forward, so we'll allow them to join us. We'll have about a two-minute break.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

You know why we're here. I think the clerk explained we'd like your opening comments, and then we'll go to questions from the committee.

If I'm correct, you're starting, Mr. Thibeau, if you're ready to go.

[Robert Thibeau, President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, honourable members of this committee, fellow veterans, and ladies and gentlemen, I thank the Creator, first of all, for the opportunity to be here on behalf of our aboriginal veterans. I also wish to acknowledge that we are meeting today on non-ceded Algonquin territory.

I am Robert Thibeau, president of the Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones. We are an organization that is recognized throughout North America, and our membership includes allied aboriginal veterans. The AVA is a young organization, which has a three-stage mission.

The first is to advocate: to advise and provide support to all aboriginal veterans and their families regarding all issues pertaining to veterans' needs and rights; to advocate for and provide support on behalf of aboriginal serving members.

The second is community service: to promote, engage in, and provide support to the community by encouraging contributions to our society and to future generations; to provide the most positive influence to our aboriginal communities and youth, by both traditional teachings and strong leadership development through a variety of sources.

The third is remembrance: to honour and perpetuate the memories and outstanding deeds of our fallen comrades who gave their lives to preserve the freedom for all. In honouring those who paid the ultimate sacrifice, we will act at all times with respect and dignity.

Although we are a new organization by name, our members are known and respected in their local communities. We have, in a short period of time, become well known with other veterans organizations from across Canada, and we are still in the process of working with other veterans organizations in North America.

We are veterans, but we are also aboriginals who view our culture as our strength. This is one of the reasons I wear the regalia you see me wearing today. It is my way of displaying the pride I have in my culture, as well as the pride of serving in Canada's military forces. Our expression of culture is evident at the many aboriginal community activities that take place nationwide, and our participation is an example of not only the pride that we have shown to Canada, but the positive influence we give our communities and our future generations.

AVA has secured memorandums of understanding with First Nations Veterans of Canada, which are the veterans under the Assembly of First Nations and the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. Hand in hand with both of these national organizations, it is our goal to work towards positive results on issues affecting veterans and their families.

Today, I have the honour to also speak on behalf of Chief Percy Joe, president of the First Nations Veterans of Canada.

I must commend this committee on their hard work and their efforts on behalf of the many World War II veterans and Korean War veterans, and their families, as this shows you are beginning to have an understanding of the sacrifices that veterans and their families have endured for many years.

Thank you. Meegwech.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Thibeau, for those opening comments.

We'll now hear from Mr. Black, from the Air Force Association of Canada.

Perhaps you'd like to begin, sir, please.

[Dean Black, Executive Director, Air Force Association of Canada]

Good morning, Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for this opportunity. I bring greetings from Colonel Terry Chester, our national president, who couldn't be with us today. I think it's because he's in British Columbia and perhaps the weather's much nicer there.

I understand that comments that reflect on the purpose of the association would be helpful to the members. Forgive me if members are already aware of some of these details.

My name is Dean Black. I'm the executive director of the Air Force Association of Canada. I'm a retired helicopter pilot with 30 years of service. It's a pleasure to be here with Mr. Thibeau, whom I only recently met at the Veterans Consultation Group at the Royal Canadian Legion. He informed me of a friend of his, a member of his association, who also flew helicopters during the 1960s Vietnam War, and I'm looking forward to meeting Mr. Thibeau's friend.

The Air Force Association of Canada, formerly the Royal Canadian Air Force Association, was formed by an order in council on 21 May 1948. The formation of the association was certified by letters patent issued in May 1951. The association helps members understand the significance of their contributions to the security and well-being of their country. The association accomplishes this goal by providing members with a venue in which they gather to share their common identity and experiences. The process of sharing helps members understand the scope of their individual contributions in the wider context that is an enterprise known as an air force. These are the means by which we can inform new generations of Canadians about the accomplishments, value, and importance of their country's air force.

The association devotes limited, member-funded resources toward three goal areas: heritage, youth, and advocacy. In respect of youth, we recognize the importance of the Air Cadet League of Canada and the work they do with young Canadians aged 13 to 18. It also acknowledges that the integrity and quality of a nation's air power is enhanced the longer individuals participate and gain experience in this very complex sector. Air power, civilian and military, is a technologically demanding domain that requires a concerted long-term effort by, and investment in, people. By encouraging the cadets to develop an early interest in an aerospace career, again civilian or military, the association only hopes to do its part to contribute to the integrity and quality of our nation's aerospace industry or air power.

Heritage is a goal that speaks to our effort to help air force members, serving and retired, deal with the wider context of their individual air force career contributions. In the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, as many of you know, many young men and women in the throes of demobilization were struggling to understand the nature and scope of their contributions, as well as integrating back into Canadian society. The association did its part to bring them together so that they could all share in both burdens. The sharing of identity, experiences, and ideas helped all of them, and it continues to do so to this very day. One only needs to reflect on the meaning and impact of the recent unveiling by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, our association's patron, of the Bomber Command Memorial, a tremendous testament to the 55,573 men who lost their lives in the strategic bombing campaign, and to the strategic bombing command veterans who survived what must have been a horrible time in their lives.

The Air Force Association of Canada remains forever indebted to the Canadian government, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, the Honourable Steven Blaney, and the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Peter MacKay, for their unflagging devotion to the care of our strategic bombing veterans throughout this incredible year. Since 1977, the association has published Air Force Magazine, the primary heritage means by which we share members' experiences across the association, currently 8,000 members strong.

Finally, advocacy is the mission area that provides members the opportunity to inform Canadians still in uniform and those in the aerospace industry of the challenges and successes of their careers, and how to improve upon and leverage those challenges and successes for future generations. A vast amount of experience is gained following a 35-year career in one's air force, as I'm sure you can appreciate, and much of it involves technical skills that are not easily replaced. The process of advocating for a well-equipped, well-prepared, and well-trained air force is facilitated through the participation of knowledgeable, talented communicators whose ideas and views serve to inform those civilians and military officials charged with responding to modern and future challenges.

The Air Force Association is not a veterans group per se. While we do strive to provide assistance to air force veterans, the material, the solidary, and the purposive benefits we offer are different from those offered by other important groups, such as the Royal Canadian Legion, the National Council of Veteran Associations, and some of those that are represented today.

It's for this reason that we defer most of the veterans needs issues to those groups, especially the Royal Canadian Legion. To that end, the Air Force Association is an active member of the veterans consultation group, chaired by the Legion. We see this group as an effective way of bringing much needed focus for the benefit of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

There are too many issues requiring answers too quickly. An individual veteran's expectations remain, in some cases, far too high when it comes to modern-day challenges. We can only hope that our collective participation and collaboration with like-minded veterans groups will help reduce, to a manageable number, the most important issues on which we depend on the Minister of Veterans Affairs for help.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

We turn to our third group. Mr. Michael Blais, it's good to have you here again. I see you've brought along Jerry Kovacs. I welcome him to join us at the table.

[Jerry Kovacs, Member, Canadian Veterans Advocacy]

If I sit here, I can watch everyone. Body language is 80% of communication.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Mr. Blais, you're on your own.

[Michael Blais, President, Canadian Veterans Advocacy]

Thank you for the invitation, Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen.

First, permit me to express the Canadian Veterans Advocacy's satisfaction that the government has fulfilled their pledge to harmonize war pensions and allowances with the recent SISIP legal decisions.

By definition, those requiring this allowance are experiencing substantial economic duress, and the end of the clawback is certain to have a definitive impact on their financial quality of life. Accordingly, we would acknowledge the government's efforts on these proposed changes.

There are issues, however, that I would like to address today: the harmonization of war pensions and allowances; retroactivity with the SISIP decision; the financial criteria of the allowance; and the allowance's legislated exclusion of thousands of disabled veterans who served this nation in Korea after World War II—veterans who are disabled, veterans who are clients of Veterans Affairs Canada and who, having reached the age of 55 for the ladies or 60 for the men, meet the allowance's age requirements.

The first issue is of great importance, and as no decision has been rendered on the earnings loss benefits retroactivity, I would have you consider both issues, as the war pensioners' allowance legislative changes have been motivated by this government's efforts to harmonize these problems with the SISIP decision.

I am a member of the SISIP class action. I have been a victim of this unjust clawback for 20 years. As such, I cannot tell you how important the issue of retroactivity is to me and my colleagues. Those who have sustained a similar financial discord as a consequence of reductions to their war pensioners' allowance or the earnings loss benefit must be accorded the same level of respect and retroactive compensation as was applied through the SISIP decision if the principles of harmonization are to be attained and—equally important—if justice is to be served.

The second issue is the allowance's financial criteria as they reflect on the establishment of a harmonized foundation determining precisely what level of annual income is required to ensure veterans are accorded the basic tenets of life, such as shelter, food, and clothing. The ELB and the SISIP programs have been harmonized. The poverty threshold has been clearly defined. Yet this threshold has not been applied to the war pensioners' allowance criteria. Consequently, the economically unrealistic financial threshold has been perpetuated, one that denies veterans who, when assessed under the new SISIP or ELB poverty threshold standard and benefiting from the non-inclusion of their Veterans Affairs Canada disability award, would be deemed eligible for this allowance.

The third issue, the exclusion of veterans who served in Korea after World War II is growing particularly problematic. At this time as a nation, we must be cognizant of Canada's military history since the cessation of hostilities in Korea. We must acknowledge, not dismiss, the commitment of hundreds of thousands of Canadians who have served at sea, in the air, or on the ground for prolonged periods in Europe during the Cold War and/or on dozens of United Nations or North Atlantic Treaty Organization-sponsored special duty areas. These men and women may not have experienced the same number of catastrophic casualities or fatalities as the nation has sustained in open conflict. However, these multi-generational, high-stress operational deployments have been plagued by a plethora of non-combat injuries very similar to what we have borne witness to in Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia. The sacrifice these veterans have made on behalf of this nation cannot be dismissed or ignored. Canada's obligation to them must be fully embraced, not discredited through exclusionary protocols.

The budget implementation plan also includes provisions to include the Last Post burial fund allowances to approximately $7,400. This is a positive development, yet regrettably does not address the restrictive issues that have resulted in an unreasonable denial rate of 67% or an exclusionary policy that denies eligibility for a dignified interment to veterans who served in Korea after World War II.

The $12,000 threshold, when put in the context of the government's harmonized ELB, insists its poverty-level determination does not reflect the economic realities impoverished veterans are confronting, and we would encourage the committee to take advantage of this opportunity to amend the Last Post burial fund threshold to respect and reflect the standards the government established and legislated through Bill C-55.

Equally important, the deceased veterans disability pension must be excluded from the Last Post burial fund's means test, as it has been excluded from SISIP and ELB and the war pensioners' allowance. The issue of inclusion of veterans of all eras is similar to our position that we have identified through the war pensioners' allowance, and as an advocacy, our position is resolute: one veteran, one standard.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Blais.

We'll now turn to the committee members for their questions.

We'll start with Mr. Chicoine for five minutes, please.