Evidence of meeting #45 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ptsd.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Ludlow  President, Treble Victor Group
Phil Ralph  National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada
David Macdonald  National Partnerships Director, Wounded Warriors Canada
Tim Patriquin  Past-President, Treble Victor Group
Guy Parent  Veterans Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
Sharon Squire  Deputy Veterans Ombudsman, Executive Director Operations, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Good morning.

Welcome, everyone.

This morning I welcome you to meeting number 45 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today, we are finishing our study on the continuum of transition services.

During the first half of the meeting we will have the pleasure of hearing from Don Ludlow and Tim Patriquin, Treble Victor Group's president and past president; as well as Phil Ralph, national program director, and David MacDonald, from Wounded Warriors Canada.

And during our second hour, we will hear from Guy Parent, Veterans Ombudsman.

Please note that this meeting will conclude with a 15-minute discussion regarding the request from the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to have our committee study clause 1 from Bill C-597, an act to amend the Holidays Act.

Okay, we're ready.

I'd like to draw attention to my vice-chair Peter Stoffer and this fancy pin that his colleague is—

Okay, is this for me?

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

I have one for each of you, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Including your chair.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Yes, sir, including the chair.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

There is a chance I might even recognize you first, under these circumstances.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

I would only be honoured, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Of Don Ludlow, Tim Patriquin, Phil Ralph, and David MacDonald, who is first?

Mr. Ludlow, you have the floor.

8:45 a.m.

Don Ludlow President, Treble Victor Group

Thank you very much.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

You have at least that section of the floor.

8:45 a.m.

President, Treble Victor Group

Don Ludlow

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair, committee members, and all those joining us here today.

It is a pleasure for my colleague Tim Patriquin and I to be here representing the members of the Treble Victor Group and participating in this important discussion.

The Treble Victor Group, or 3V, is a network of ex-military leaders working in business, government, and the not-for-profit sectors, who support one another in their post-service careers. We assist one another through mentoring and advice, networking, and speaking events, while consulting with corporations and other organizations to establish programs for those transitioning from the military. While not representing ill or injured soldiers specifically, we simply note that our organization comprises some 250 former military leaders with many different backgrounds and experiences, all at different stages in their careers.

We recognize that all veterans transition out of the military at some point. Many, if not most, seek engaging and meaningful careers post service. Our members believe that when considering a national approach to veterans, a great country like Canada needs to ensure the following: that we honour our heros who have served in times of war and peace; that we look after our ill and injured soldiers, seeing them through recovery, rehabilitation, and a return to fulfilling work; and that we tap the amazing talent that the nation has developed in its military services. Our organization is particularly interested and experienced in the latter point as it seeks to collaborate with businesses and organizations throughout Canada to leverage the skills, capabilities, and experiences of those with military backgrounds.

Why is it imperative to tap the talent available from transitioning veterans? First of all, Canada has invested heavily in developing and building the skills and capabilities of these citizens who are drawn from all regions of the country and all walks of life. Second, many of the strengths developed through military service are highly sought after in the business community, often-referred-to soft skills such as leadership, managing diversity, initiative, and the ability to deal with ambiguity and rapid change. Finally, evolving demographic, economic, and competitive demands require us to mobilize all talent available in the population to address looming labour and talent shortages.

With this in mind, we would like to share with you a number of insights that 3V members have gained from their own transition experiences. The first is that transition takes time. Our own experience would suggest that a well-planned and executed transition from the military can take at least two years and often much longer. The implications of this are clear. If veterans, injured or otherwise, do not spend time and effort preparing for their post-military career while still in uniform or while convalescing, a last minute move will likely not prove successful for them or their new employer.

Second, our experience with transitions has demonstrated that there is almost always a brief conversion or ramping up to a particular industry or job. Thus jobs that have a training and development component at the outset, whether some of the excellent generalist programs run by some corporations or, for example, sales roles that have common courses for all new hires, seem to be well suited to transitioning veterans and result in considerable success for all.

Finally, we have learned that a successful transition of military personnel often requires an active sponsor or a highly supportive organization. Although Canada's military is highly regarded by Canadians and business leaders, the transferability and relevance of military experience is not so well understood. Too often, someone with military experience, while perhaps interesting and impressive in person, may seem like a hiring risk in comparison to and in competition with candidates who have done a particular civilian job before.

However, success breeds success. Once given a chance, our veterans usually perform remarkably well and are quickly integrated into new organizations, teams, and ways of doing things. Not surprisingly, organizations that have had some successful hires begin to employ many more veterans, and ex-military recruitment programs become a meaningful part of their talent sourcing.

Nonetheless, veterans require sponsors and someone willing to give them a chance. The reality is that there are just not enough of these champions in the business community today. All of this is to say that while many business leaders and hiring managers are sympathetic to those with military backgrounds and regard them well, there are some barriers preventing successful transitions. We wish to underscore that despite such challenges, veterans are not looking for sympathy. They are simply looking for meaningful employment to launch their post-service careers.

What can be done to help improve the situation for our veterans and enable Canada to make better use of those with military backgrounds?

Our organization has three recommendations. First, transition needs to begin well in advance of release or completion of rehabilitation. Transitioning veterans must be encouraged to consider and be provided resources to support their post-military employment plans a number of years before hanging up their uniforms. Transition support needs to be much more than resume writing and pension briefings, and should be structured to provide both resources and time for education upgrading or skills development.

Second, a particular emphasis needs to be placed on the educational aspects of veteran transition. Veterans should be provided with sufficient funding to pursue post-secondary education or training during, or on completion of, their terms of service and efforts to grant equivalency certifications based on military service and qualifications should be accelerated. A veteran will certainly appear to be much less of a risk if they, at the very least, have similar education and qualifications to others competing for civilian jobs.

Finally, we believe that clear goals should be set and formal partnerships established with corporate Canada. The highly successful 100,000 jobs mission south of our border demonstrates what can be accomplished when a specific goal is set and when corporations understand how supporting veteran transitions can benefit their own businesses. We note that Canada Company, closer to home, has established a goal of 10,000 jobs for veterans and this is achievable with appropriate support from the business community. Once common goals are committed to, we believe there is an opportunity to establish structured apprenticeship, on-boarding, or ramp-up programs with businesses across Canada to support transitioning veterans funded in part through relevant grants or tax incentives.

In closing, we do not believe that veterans want either charity or special treatment, but rather they seek the opportunity to use the skills and experiences they acquired in the armed forces as a springboard to a post-military career. We ask that you consider ways to support veterans well in advance of their transition date, while working with Canadian businesses to establish specific programs to convert qualified veterans to successful members of their organizations. Doing all of this properly is important to our veterans who will continue to enjoy meaningful work, while contributing to the continued success and vibrancy of Canadian society.

We very much thank you for the opportunity to present to you today and look forward to questions and further discussion.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Thank you very much, Mr. Ludlow.

We now go to Mr. Ralph.

8:55 a.m.

Phil Ralph National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Mr. Chair, and members of the committee, on behalf of Wounded Warriors Canada it's our pleasure to appear once again before this committee and to be part of the very important discussion on the continuum of transition services for our ill and injured Canadian Armed Forces members.

By way of introduction, my name is Phil Ralph, and I serve as the national program director of Wounded Warriors Canada. I also serve, and have for the last quarter century, as the padre of 32 Combat Engineer Regiment in the Canadian Forces. I'm pleased to be joined today by David MacDonald, Wounded Warriors Canada's national partnerships director, a still-serving reservist with the Royal Regiment of Canada.

To briefly introduce you to our organization, Wounded Warriors Canada is a non-profit organization that helps Canadian Armed Forces members, be they regular force, reservists, or retired, who have been wounded or injured in their service to Canada. Through a wide range of national programs and services we help find solutions where gaps have left our veterans and their families in need. Currently our primary focus is on mental health and particularly the staggering impact of post-traumatic stress disorder.

Overall, our mandate is to help any veteran in need as they transition to civilian life.

At Wounded Warriors Canada, we work every day with Canadian Armed Forces members who are awaiting medical release and those who have been released and have subsequently made the transition to Veterans Affairs Canada. The realities of medical release are extremely daunting. For starters, their military careers are coming to an abrupt end and at a minimum they are now faced with a very challenging transformation in their professional lives.

While SISIP aids financially in the transition, it's merely temporary financial support. What's more, individuals who are medically releasing are injured and often remark that the experience in moving from the Department of National Defence to Veterans Affairs Canada has not been seamless. It is encouraging to hear the Minister of National Defence and Veterans Affairs minister recognize and speak openly about the needs for improvement in this important area.

As l am sure you have heard from previous testimony at this committee, from a program and service delivery standpoint there are gaps that exist in supporting transitioning ill and injured Canadian Armed Forces members. It's through the identification of these gaps that Wounded Warriors Canada works diligently to ensure that the hard-earned funds of our donors are allocated to best make a difference.

To provide just a few examples of our programming this year, we will fund the recently launched COPE program, which stands for Couples Overcoming PTSD Everyday; the Ontario provision of the veterans transition program; innovative PTSD animal-assisted therapy through our partnership with Can Praxis, the nation's leading couples-based PTSD equine therapy program; our Tribute to Your Service events to address the gap that exists in supporting family members that stand beside and behind our Canadian Armed Forces members each and every day; VETS Canada to help move our homeless veterans from the streets or shelters into affordable housing; and we are in year two of a 10-year, $400,000, Wounded Warriors Canada doctoral scholarship in veterans mental health research in partnership with the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research.

Our spectrum of care, as we like to call it, is targeted toward ensuring that our returning veterans suffering from a range of personal, health, and financial issues are supported as they transition to civilian life.

Recently we have identified a critical gap that exists in terms of support available to family members who live in environments where, for example, PTSD and operational stress injuries are present in the home. That is why our organization is taking a family-centric approach to operational stress injuries. We are seeing tremendous outcomes as a result.

Notwithstanding the gaps that exist, as mentioned, it is extremely important to note that there are effective resources within both departments to assist our transitioning Canadian Forces members and veterans. Our organization works in conjunction with those who provide care to Canadian Forces members including health services, operational stress injury social support or ACIUS, unit chaplains, casualty support management, and military family services, among other resources.

All in all we seek to encourage members to avail themselves of the programs and services that are provided within DND and VAC, and those that exist independently through funding support organizations like Wounded Warriors Canada.

It is also important to note that since our foundation, we have paid particular attention to the well-being of our primary reservists. Anyone affected with operational stress injuries face a number of obstacles and challenges on their road to recovery and their transition to civilian life. That said, within the Canadian Forces, these challenges are particularly daunting for members of the primary reserve.

The often unspoken reality is that for members of the primary reserve, whom Canadian Forces leadership have spoken of as being essential to their ability to accomplish their mission in Afghanistan, return home with little support requisite to manage the transition to civilian life.

Those who have provided 30% of the effective deployed forces return to a civilian society ill-equipped to appreciate, recognize, or deal with their needs. Further, should they seek access to programs that are in place, they often feel abandoned due to the realities of time and space coupled with the pressures of trying to provide for themselves and their families as they have transitioned back to class A service.

In summary, we consider ourselves to be a grassroots charity, interacting, listening, and responding as best we can to the needs of the men and women who bravely serve our country. From day-to-day interaction with our veterans and their families, we would be remiss if we did not offer some practical suggestions as to where the CF can work more effectively to address the needs that exist. For example, we need to eliminate long administrative delays for the receipt of awards and compensation. SISIP needs to be broader in its coverage definitions, particularly in the area of education, both in terms of programs offered and duration covered. We need to improve retraining and resources available to support workplace transition for those being medically released. Finally, the shift from the pension system to a lump sum payment as part of the new veterans charter is commonly brought to our attention as a policy position requiring review.

ln closing, we thank the committee for the invitation. We remain at your disposal should you have further questions now or at any time moving forward. As a closing remark, I just want to note that we have available copies of our annual report for the committee members, which they can take with them. They can see an overview of all the activities that Wounded Warriors Canada engages in.

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Thank you very much, Mr. Ralph.

Now it's your turn, Mr. Stoffer.

9 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To all of you, thank you very much for coming today. On behalf of all of us, thank you for the tremendous work that you do in helping the heroes of our country, but just as importantly their families as well.

In my dealings with certain veterans—it may be a shortfall or just fundamental ignorance on everyone's part in this regard—when an individual with PTSD goes into a private sector job, that company or that small firm is unaware of what triggers the PTSD in certain cases. Many times the individual.... I am dealing with one fellow now in Nova Scotia who unfortunately lost his private job because they couldn't deal with him. They didn't know how to deal with it. When I spoke to the manager, he said, “Well, we had no training or awareness of how to deal with veterans with OSI or PTSD.”

I would like some assistance or guidance from either one of you in this regard. How do we get the information out to the private sector and those jobs out there that these veterans are coming in...? We tell them they are heros and team leaders. They are successful, focused, and everything else, but they have OSI or PTSD. They'll hire them, but then unfortunately it doesn't work out for them, and the guy feels like a failure again. He is out of the military. He couldn't get a private job. Now what does he do? He feels kind of hurt by himself, and he feels he let himself and his family down.

What advice or guidance can you give us in this regard in order to help the private sector, and the medical sector as well? Many doctors in the regular system don't necessarily like dealing with men and women of the service with post-traumatic stress because the forms are complicated and long, and it's quite backlogged. I just need some advice from you on how we can go forward on these issues.

Again, thank you very much for the great work that all of you do.

9 a.m.

David Macdonald National Partnerships Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Thank you very much.

Yes, I can understand your question quite well. Coming from a personal point, I was diagnosed with PTSD in 2013 due to injuries I sustained overseas. I have been in that position where I've been in a corporate job where they didn't quite understand what was going on. For a veteran who's going through an OSI or PTSD and ends up losing his private sector job that he fought so hard to get, that's obviously a devastating blow.

Despite all of the documentation and all the work and all the knowledge we have surrounding PTSD, we are miles away from truly understanding what's going on in that person's head. There is a general level of ignorance—this is the best way I can say it—in society to truly understand. The stigma surrounding PTSD is...and I've been talking to groups about this. They always say the same thing. I put the exact case of what happened to me up on a PowerPoint presentation without actually revealing who I am, and I always get the same thing. They say, “Oh he's going to be suicidal. He has addiction. He's going to be angry”, and all those things: depression, abandonment issues. I don't have any of those. I don't suffer from any of those issues or anything like that. I was suicidal at one point in my life due to my PTSD, but I don't have addiction. I'm not depressed or anything like that.

It centres around the stigma of what we think PTSD is. The start of trying to solve that issue would be a general education platform for corporations and employers to understand that when they hire a member who might have PTSD, it's as simple as.... I was lucky enough when I moved into my corporate job with TD Bank. Right in the interview they asked the standard question, “Do you have anything that would prevent you from doing your job, or do you have any special needs that you require?” I was lucky enough to be okay with admitting this, and I flat out said, “Well, I have PTSD.” Instantly I thought,“Oh, God”, because I've actually lost jobs in the interview phase by admitting that. They had the best answer. They were like, “Okay. Do you need a dog? Do you have any special...?” I just said, “Well, I just maybe need the occasional break or two more than I would get in the day.” They said, okay, no problem. They made note of that, and it went to HR and it was disseminated down.

But was there any formal education program in that bag? No. Maybe HR could have supplied something to them to explain that if you have someone who has PTSD...just a simple education document on what PTSD is, because a lot of employers don't understand what it is. They think of it as a mental illness, and unfortunately, there are still a lot of people out there who think that this guy is going to snap one day and possibly go on a shooting rampage in the office. It's not that at all. Unfortunately, the media has portrayed it that way, as we see too often on TV. That's not the case.

I think it starts with communication and an education program.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

Thank you.

Mr. Opitz.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, in full disclosure to my colleagues, I'm a member of Treble Victor. Phil Ralph and I may or may not have had adventures in the past, and David and I share a regiment in common.

David, you anticipated and answered a question that I was about to ask on PTSD. I was also going to shift it to the Treble Victor guys, because it's that perception of what it is. You're right, sometimes because of the media, because of movies and dramas and things like that, people internalize and think that's what it means and that's what's going to happen in their workplace, which is not the case, as you very well articulated just now.

But what do we do in the corporate world to explain that? How do we educate employers? Because I think as employers and civil society, we do need to look after our veterans. There's prosperity in Canada because we have great businesses and a great economy, but a lot of that depends on security. They're interdependent.

How do we educate our employers? Maybe I'll start with the Treble Victor guys on this.

April 23rd, 2015 / 9:05 a.m.

Tim Patriquin Past-President, Treble Victor Group

Sure. Thank you very much.

I think there's a tendency in Canadian society and perhaps others to associate PTSD and veterans as synonymous. PTSD is actually a societal issue. In emergency services, if you're a paramedic, a fireman, a policeman, you can also get PTSD, as in other professions. I think it has to be not just something focused at veterans, but something that is a broader education program, and not just to corporate Canada as potential hirers of veterans but to the general public. I think it's something, as David mentioned, that's misunderstood.

How do we go about that? That's a good question.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

You also mentioned making career and education part of this for soldiers. I know the minister has already talked about, for example, transitioning, right from the time somebody signs up and joins the military to the point that they're actually releasing, and an education program right from the start in terms of building the foundation and already looking ahead to release. I'm just looking at the military.com site in the U.S., which is not a bad one. I'm just looking at a thing saying: getting your degree, making education decisions, getting the right degree, which school, how do you do it, those sorts of things.

Do you think we need to do a better job in having partnerships with post-secondary institutions to start developing those skills within soldiers as they go along? It's like the sales and marketing that you mentioned. You identify somebody who may have particular skills and a talent for that sort of thing and you maybe encourage them to develop those abilities throughout their service.

Do you have any thoughts on that? Is David weighing in as well, and Phil?

9:10 a.m.

Past-President, Treble Victor Group

Tim Patriquin

I couldn't agree with you more. The Americans do it well. I believe the motto of one of their military academies is something like, we are training America's future leaders. From the very beginning, a serviceman or servicewoman should already be thinking about their post-military career. I think that's where Veterans Affairs and the Minister of National Defence have to work much more closely. I know Minister O'Toole has expressed that desire to get into and meet the members of the Canadian Forces because each and every one of those is a future veteran. I think that's very important for us to be cognizant of.

Your idea, Mr. Opitz, to forge a stronger alliance with post-secondary organizations, I think, is incredible. It shouldn't just be universities and colleges. It should be places where you can get trades and other skills.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

And equivalencies....

9:10 a.m.

Past-President, Treble Victor Group

Tim Patriquin

Absolutely.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

I'll go over to Padre Ralph for a second. You mentioned CIMVHR, and there are a lot of groups that do that kind of work. CIMVHR is of course part of 37 universities, but DRDC is doing work on identifying the markers within blood and the genome to see who is susceptible to stressors and that kind of thing, and there are other groups and organizations. Do you think we need to aggregate some of that better? Do you think people are working in silos on that? Or is there enough collaboration among those groups that maybe we should take some time to explore and perhaps encourage a better aggregate response?

9:10 a.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Phil Ralph

An organization like ours that works on transition issues and grassroots support recognizes right away that there is a need for ongoing research. Research is not as sexy as the other programs that we do. It's much harder because it takes so much longer to see fruition and results from the results of that work. It's hard to get people excited about research. It's one of the big challenges and we knew that.

One of the reasons that we funded our 10-year commitment to CIMVHR was that we recognized that when the shift focuses away from active missions overseas and people begin to lose some of that corporate knowledge—and it's very easy to forget all those lessons—we need to be training the next generation of caregivers so that the next time Canada is in conflict, those lessons don't have to be relearned. As for sharing best practices, I know when CIMVHR has its forum, that's one of the things they do. They bring various researchers together to present and work together. The academic community is fairly good at sharing information, sometimes better than other communities.