Evidence of meeting #9 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was veteran.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Keith Hillier  Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs
Anne-Marie Pellerin  Director, Case Management and Support Services, Department of Veterans Affairs
Nathalie Pham  Manager, Client Service Team, Montreal Office, Department of Veterans Affairs

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Before I start my questions, I would to just like to make a comment.

We've had several meetings before this, including a meeting with the minister, and there were a lot of questions and comments on office closures. I don't quite understand the logic of the criticism, because as far as I know, and I mentioned this at one of our meetings, the average age of our Second World War and Korean veterans is 80 to 90 years old.

These are not the people who are able to jump in a car like they did 25 years ago and go and have a conversation or obtain services in the VAC office if they need it. These people age. I know a lot of them. They do require help to move from point A to point B. Therefore, I don't think it's of great help to them that we keep open an office that they can't get to easily in the first place.

Could you just comment on this?

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back, given that the honourable member raised the issue of numbers of case managers and offices that are closing, I knew I had it here,15 is the number.

I think it's important to note that we do not provide clinical services. A veteran is not going into a Veterans Affairs Canada office whether it's one we're closing or one that's open to receive clinical intervention. That is through their physicians and other treating medical professionals, but they do meet in terms of having guidance and what have you.

Our operating model hasn't changed, certainly, for the period of time that I've been with Veterans Affairs, for 19 years. We have gone out to the veteran's home if the veteran needs a home visit. Occupational therapists have to go out and see them if they need home modification and nurses have to go out to see them. The difference is that in some locations the case manager will be getting in his or her car from a different city to go and drive to them. For example, there's been a lot of discussion around Cape Breton. If you live in Cheticamp and you're a veteran who needs a home visit, the difference is that rather than having someone in Sydney get in their car to go to see you, it will be in Halifax.

I might point out that three of the case managers in Sydney are actually relocating to Halifax. So most of the Cape Breton veterans will not have a change in case manager because they're actually relocating. I want to put that on the record.

Mr. Chair, I think what's important to note in this is that we have 7,000 veterans who are case-managed. That's out of a population of 208,000 clients of Veterans Affairs, about 135,000 veterans. Yes, we are closing 8 offices, but in recent years we've opened up 24 integrated personnel support centres and this is because this is where the growing demand is with modern-day veterans. So we've reacted to that. We've put additional case managers in places like Valcartier, Petawawa, and Edmonton garrison because we've seen a higher demand there. And we will continue to meet that demand.

If you look at the totality of our service outlets, if I could call them that, we have 26 Veterans Affairs locations, 24 integrated personnel support centres, and 17 operation stress injury clinics, in cooperation with our colleagues at the Canadian Armed Forces. That's 67 locations where veterans can receive a service for 7,000 case-managed veterans. I submit, Mr. Chair, that if you do the math, that's about 105 case-managed veterans per service location. In addition, to that, there are up to 600 Service Canada locations that can meet the needs of veterans who are in lower needs, i.e., veterans who are not case-managed.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

We now move on to the second round for four minutes.

Mr. Chicoine, please.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to centres, I want to say something I will not ask you to comment on.

I think the minister made the right decision when he decided to reassign individuals to Service Canada centres. I think that was a way to recognize that closing those centres completely was not a good idea. We will see whether this is enough. I think that the decision was a good one.

We are told that 200 Service Canada offices will be used as points of service. You include them in that category, but are those really points of service? Right now, all we are hearing is that veterans cannot have access to much, aside from a telephone number or a website.

Could you tell us more about that and also about whether any training is planned for Service Canada, given that the transfer will be carried out soon?

12:25 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

First of all, Mr. Chair, the number of Service Canada locations, including their mobile locations, is close to 600. All Service Canada personnel have received training on VAC programs as they relate to disability benefits and the veterans independence program. This training was developed in cooperation between Veterans Affairs Canada and Service Canada.

With respect to the areas where the offices are closing, in addition to the services provided by Service Canada, a veteran will be able to bring in a copy of an application for a disability benefit or for the veterans independence program. It will be reviewed by the Service Canada officer to make sure it's complete. They will also authenticate that the veteran is who they say they are. There needs to be proof, and they can do that authentication and send it on to us. They will also help the veteran with what I would call general information, which they've been doing for many years, as they do for all government departments. In addition to this service, they can also help people get a My VAC account, etc. The key elements are reviewing and authenticating applications.

The other thing to bear in mind is that because of the reducing red tape initiatives, veterans no longer have as much need to go to offices as they once had. You don't have to take in your receipts for health-related travel to get them checked because you don't have to send them in anymore. With the VIP, you don't have to have all kinds of receipts for snow shovelling and everything because we moved to a grant system, and that grant system eliminated 2.5 million transactions.

As the minister announced last Thursday, in the Service Canada location that is nearest to the office we're closing, which in many cases across Canada is in the same building, we will have a client service agent from Veterans Affairs. That client service agent will be embedded in those eight Service Canada locations, and for inquiries that are beyond the scope of the Service Canada personnel, the client service agent will respond.

The big difference is that Service Canada officials have no access to the VAC database. They are not able to look at a veteran's file whereas a client service agent, who's a VAC employee, will have full access to our database and will be able to handle inquiries beyond that. We just want to make sure that veterans do not see any reduction in the level of service as we make the transition in those eight cities.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Mr. Hillier.

We'll move on to Mr. Lobb, please, for four minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hillier, for your time and dedication. In the last five years, you've been to the committee many times, and I've been here.

We've had some discussions around the new Veterans Charter and we've also examined some other programs such as WSIB, for example, in the province of Ontario. One of the things I thought would be worth mentioning is discussion around where an injury occurs. I want you to explain to the committee what happens if an active serving member is injured. Let's say the person also owns and operates a farm with their parents and herniates two discs. How do you deal with whether the herniated discs were dealt with on the farm for pleasure or in military service? As they're transferring from CF to Veterans Affairs, how does that happen?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Case Management and Support Services, Department of Veterans Affairs

Anne-Marie Pellerin

The medical reports that Mr. Hillier mentioned earlier in relation to supporting a disability benefit are critically important. In the case you describe, those medical reports for injuries or incidents during service or work-related repetitive-strain injuries on the veteran's file are critically important in helping the disability benefit adjudicators to determine whether or not the injury was caused or aggravated by military service.

Taking the farming scenario, if the injury was deemed to have been caused primarily by the farming activities but then aggravated by service, and this can be demonstrated through the disability adjudication process, then there would be a favourable decision in that case.

We have medical advisors associated with our disability benefit program. They go through all of the medical and non-medical evidence in rendering a decision. Benefit of the doubt is critically important in making that attribution to service.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

To my mind, the key thing you mentioned is the benefit of the doubt, keeping in mind that this may have caused the person to no longer be in active service. It may have ended their career prematurely. They could be under a lot of stress mentally and physically because of the injury. The benefit of the doubt allows that member to be treated fairly. Veterans Affairs provides what they need both physically and mentally so they don't go into a tailspin—any more than they may be already.

Is that generally the idea behind that practice?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Case Management and Support Services, Department of Veterans Affairs

Anne-Marie Pellerin

The benefit of doubt provision means that, in weighing all of the evidence presented for a disability claim, if the evidence for favourable or unfavourable decision is equal, then the benefit of doubt goes to the veteran. So it's very much an adjudicative process that looks at all of the evidence, weighs it, and applies the benefit of doubt when it's not entirely clear one way or another.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

In my own experience in a manufacturing environment, WSIB does not apply the benefit of the doubt to anybody, in my opinion.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

I will now move on, and I have a couple of questions.

First, I want to echo the sentiment of others at the table and thank you for your tremendous career in our public service.

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

Thank you.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

We greatly appreciate that and we wish you and your family and everyone the very best. We look forward to working with the person who will be replacing you. We hope you have a lot of fun.

I have a couple of questions for you. You mentioned that there are 7,000 people being case-managed. You mentioned the number, but the reality is that over two-thirds of our veteran community are not even being serviced now by DVA. They don't have the benefit, or they have never applied, or maybe they were denied or something of that nature. Have you planned for an increase in that regard?

I mentioned to the deputy minister and the minister when they were here that you said that any veteran could have a home visit. That's not necessarily correct. We did 11 case trials in Halifax. Besides getting the response from DVA that they would get back within two to five days, the reality was that a person has to be case-managed before they have a home visit. A lot of veterans thought they wouldn't have to go in and workers would come to their house and help them fill in the forms on their very first call. I said, “I don't think that's the way it works.” So we'd like you to reiterate that for the record.

For Mr. Hayes's and the committee's sake, and for those who may be listening, Bill C-55 was authorized and approved by Parliament in 2011. Section 20.1 refers to a “comprehensive review of the provisions and implementation of this Act”. That's where this study came from originally, and that amendment actually came from this committee. When the bill came before the committee, this is what we unanimously adopted. I just want to put that on the record. That's why we're where we are now.

We thank you again, sir, for your service and I look forward to your response.

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

With regard to home visits, we have not changed our business practices for many years. Veterans who were case-managed, who need a home visit, will get it. We have never been in the business of sending people out just to help with first applications or what have you.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Mr. Hillier, I would just interrupt for one second.

You're absolutely correct, but when the discussion of the office closures was happening, it was stated in Parliament, in committee, and publicly in the media that, not to worry, veterans can have home visits. They didn't say, “case-managed veterans”. The official word was—and these weren't words from you, by the way, they were from other people who said, “veterans can have home visits”. So I just wanted to correct that.

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

I just want to also correct from the standpoint that there are exceptions. In fact, we do sometimes go out to help a veteran, even with a first application, certainly sometimes with VIP applications if there are extenuating circumstances. If a veteran calls and says, “Look, I'm really not doing very well. I have a number of medical issues, I may have a sight impairment or hearing impairment,” then, in fact, the local office makes judgment calls. The reality is that it would be an impossibility, and I would suggest not a particularly good use of taxpayers' money.

And the other thing I would point out, as I mentioned earlier in my testimony, is that while we don't go out and visit people to assist in preparing forms unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as suggested, we have about 50 people across the country for whom that's actually their day job. They help veterans gather information for disability awards. They're called disability benefits officers and they're across Canada.

Also, I would point out that in our partnership with the Royal Canadian Legion, the Royal Canadian Legion works very closely with us, with the legion service officers, where they in fact go out and help people fill out various forms, and what have you.

So the key is, in terms of home visits, it's on the basis of need.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Mr. Hillier.

We move on to another new member of our committee for today, Mr. Trost. Four minutes, please. That'll conclude the session.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As was noted, I'm a bit of a visitor here today, so I'm trying to understand a little bit more about what's going on.

In your comments, you mentioned that Veterans Affairs has 200,000 clients. Here it says 135,000 veterans, and 7,000 are receiving case management. Then later on it says that 91% of veterans are Canadian Armed Forces veterans, and war service veterans make up 6%. That's clear to you, I have no doubt, but to me it's about as clear as mud. Who are the 135,000? How do you define who's in there? Who are your 200,000? What are the 7,000? And what does the 6% and the 91% refer to? Everyone else around here may know that, but I need the education.

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

Mr. Chair, I'll start at the basics.

According to Stats Canada, there are about 700,000 veterans who are alive in Canada today. At Veterans Affairs, we provide services to 208,000 individuals. Of that, 135,000 are veterans, i.e., veterans of the Second World War, the Korean War, or post-Korea conflicts. The difference between the 208,000 and the 135,000 is about 10,000 RCMP officers, and the rest are survivors. For the most part, they are widows of Second World War veterans who were able to take advantage of the government program that allowed, in certain circumstances, for widows to continue getting the home services of VIP after the death of the veteran. So if you look at that 135,000 figure, these are people who wore a uniform and served Canada. Of that number, 7,000 are people who have higher needs. These are the people who have case management. These could typically be someone with a series of psychological and physical injuries, or one or the other. Of that number, the 90% that's referred to are post-Korea veterans. This ties in with the closing of offices and putting more people on Canadian Armed Forces bases.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

So only 6%—420, roughly, is the math that we did here—are World War II or Korea?

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Keith Hillier

Yes.

No, sorry.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Four hundred and twenty—