Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2018

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, during the last election the Prime Minister said that no veteran shall have to fight the government in court for the benefits that he or she deserves. However, during the period between 2016 and 2018, $38 million was spent on lawsuits. We have veterans who filed a class action lawsuit at Ste. Anne's Hospital because of a diminishment of service and a diminishment of staff that weren't supposed to be there when VAC transferred to the Quebec government the services that were to be provided at Ste. Anne's. I visited Ste. Anne's in June, and I saw it first-hand. I heard first-hand from those veterans in that facility.

We also have Mr. Bruyea. He questioned the government. He actually asked for a cost-benefit analysis on the pension-for-life scheme, and he was told that a cost-benefit analysis wasn't going to be done because it represented a less than one million dollars expenditure. The suggestion is that the pension-for-life scheme is a shell game being played by the government, that there's no additional cost and no additional benefit to our veterans. Mr. Bruyea got that information from your own finance department officials and you chose to attack him publicly. Why?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Apples and oranges.... I think it's very important that we make sure the information we get out there is as straightforward and as truthful as we can possibly make it. There are enough veterans out there who frankly—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

It was confirmed by your own finance department officials, Minister.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

—get anxiety and are prone to anxiety, and we all know that anxiety can be a trigger for other mental health issues.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Why did you attack Mr. Bruyea?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

What I needed to do, not really in attacking but in clarifying what Mr. Bruyea had to say, was simply to say, “Look, this is what we're talking about. It's pension for life. It's a very different thing.”

I don't want to comment too much more on it because, to the point of how you began this question, it is before the courts at the moment. Certainly, given my druthers, would I go to court? Do I want to go to court? No, I do not, but obviously where something is initiated by a veteran or by any group—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Let me ask you this question, Minister, because you've had a lot of time. I asked the question and you've had ample time.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

—I have to make sure that our department and the interests of the Government of Canada are represented.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Why are veterans still being asked to go to court to fight their government? Why? After the Prime Minister made that promise, why is that happening?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Mr. Brassard, while you were talking over me about it, I think I answered the question fairly clearly. There are instances, and certainly I'm not one to say that veterans or any other organizations are incapable or should not be allowed to take the government to court. But where they do, I have to make sure that the government's interests and the interests of the department are well represented. Therefore, we need to make sure that we're represented in a court of law. It's not something that I choose to do or like to do, but where it's initiated by another party, regardless of the circumstance, I have to make sure that we're well represented.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I want to focus on service dogs for a second.

Minister, there was an efficacy study that was done by Université Laval. In almost every circumstance—I would suggest that in every circumstance—it was shown that service dogs improved the lives of veterans and their families. That study has been on your desk, from what I understand, yet on April 18, just eight months ago, your spokesman, Alex Wellstead, was quoted by CBC as saying, “We're working to put in place standards, rapidly, so that veterans have access to properly trained psychiatric service dogs”.

It's been over three years since you took office, eight months since the process collapsed and this renewed commitment was made. This study shows there is efficacy with respect to service dogs and the effect that it has on veterans. When will those standards be introduced?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The study, which is one that we funded, is very limited in its scope. It deals right now with about 18 veterans. It began with 22, I think, but four dropped out.

The unfortunate thing, too, is that we haven't had the time yet to analyze a few other crucial factors—where a caregiver is involved, or where one is not involved. Where a caregiver is involved it can, not skew but could perhaps affect the results of the study.

In other words, we have to be able to zone in particularly on the effect of the service dog, and we're doing that now, but we basically need more data.

You're quite right in saying that anecdotally, too, we know this. It all seems to be pointing in the right direction, so we didn't waste much time. With the medical expense tax credit in the last budget, we told the veterans that they could put some money aside and it would count towards the expenses. Whether it be for actually buying the dog or for feeding the dog, or veterinary bills, which can add up, they can apply that tax credit. We can do that right now for people who are either going to be purchasing a dog or....

But there is also, to be honest with you, a huge supply issue. Anybody who is familiar with these dogs understands that they are incredibly well trained and it takes time to train them and get them up to the standard that we need.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Minister, quickly, because I only have about 10 seconds, why has that tax credit not been initiated by the Department of Finance and the finance minister at this point?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

The tax credit will be initiated in the next tax year.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay, we'll see.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Mr. Bratina, you have five minutes.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Minister, I'd like to find out about the emergency fund. What would have happened with regard to these kinds of emergencies prior to bringing that fund into effect? What would have happened in an emergency situation, because this is new money, I understand. What would have happened previously, before that money was budgeted?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It was an eye-opener for me on my first day as minister, being debriefed by the deputy, because basically if we found somebody, there wasn't a pot of money. We went to wills and bequeathments. I was frankly shocked by that.

Just to colour this a little, it means that there are people out there who will will or bequeath a portion of their estate to look after homeless veterans, but it's usually under particular circumstances. For instance, say I'm from Calgary and I decide that I want to leave some money for homeless veterans in the Calgary area, or I want to leave money for homeless veterans from the Afghan war. Then, once we've identified somebody, in order to get them the financial help that they need, we would have to go back into wills and bequeathments and find a match, and that could take time.

You're the one who told me this, so you go ahead.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Yes, thanks very much, sir, for the question.

The department has 23 of these funds. Over time, folks have provided these funds for specific reasons, so there are ones, for example, for folks living on Vancouver Island, and for Edmonton and Ste. Anne's Hospital, or restrictions on how the money could be used. Of the 23 funds, there was only one fund that was kind of open-ended, coast to coast and for emergencies, so case managers, veterans services agents and folks from across the country went to this fund. It was drained on a constant basis, and we did not have an authority under our legislation, regulation, to dispense public funds for requests that were in the grey zone.

We would partner with the Canadian Armed Forces morale and welfare services, which I know a lot about from my previous life. They have non-public funds. We would request funding from the Canadian Armed Forces to top up that specific emergency fund, which was less than adequate, and clearly a government has the responsibility to reach out to these veterans and their families when they are in crisis. It was terrific when we got this funding, and we're making our process as expeditious as possible. I find that things get swamped in bureaucracy, so to speak, but the aim is to enable the most junior case manager, a veterans service agent who is presented with an emergency on a Friday afternoon at four o'clock or five o'clock, to say, “We're going to get the money out to you.”

In some of these cases, we're even doing the paperwork after the fact, and I'm okay with that, just to make sure that, if someone comes calling, we can put a roof over their heads, put some groceries on the table or address their no-kidding emergency.

We have found the difficulty is that what is an emergency in one location could be an enduring situation in another location, so every one of these cases is viewed on its own merits, but I'd also say that we have hired some of the best social workers, psychologists and nurses coast to coast who have a huge amount of experience, and we trust them to get on with supporting our veterans and their families.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

With the money that has been brought in, would it be fair to say that the program will be reviewed for its efficacy and whether it seems to be enough to handle the situation? I would assume that, in the next budget year, there will be an allocation, so one would hope that it would be.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I'm anticipating to have funding next year in this regard, sir.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Right. Do I have more time?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

You have one minute.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

General Natynczyk and I were together with some great veterans of the Devil's Brigade not so long ago at a special event. There was a veteran from Hamilton, 95 years old, who made a great speech, and subsequently I spoke to the United Council of Veterans. I'm a member of the veterans committee and a sitting member of government, and they asked me to speak and I was delighted to. We had a wonderful evening.

General Natynczyk, you noticed that it's not always difficult questions being asked, and certainly the forum here today is to get to the bottom of issues, but isn't there a lot of good work being done on behalf of veterans?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Sir, there is, but we can always improve. That's why, with these town halls, when we hear these reflections, in some cases we're doing all right and in some cases we aren't.

I would also say that the vast majority of veterans who leave the Canadian Armed Forces can transition relatively easily into civil society. Two-thirds do and we know that third that is having difficulty. Often they come from the combat arms—infantry, armour, artillery and perhaps some in the navy as boatswains—and we need to focus on them so that they as well can find purpose and so on moving into the future.

There's a huge amount of work being done, and what's interesting is that, when someone is happy, they go quiet. They come in. They whisper in the ear. They send notes. You know, we were just at a Legion event a couple of weeks ago—