Evidence of meeting #103 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was year.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

General  Retired) Walter Natynczyk (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs
Karen Ludwig  New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.
Michel Doiron  Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs
Charlotte Bastien  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Oversight and Communications, Department of Veterans Affairs
Rear-Admiral  Retired) Elizabeth Stuart (Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs
Bernard Butler  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Commemoration, Department of Veterans Affairs
Richard Martel  Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC

4:25 p.m.

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Thanks very much.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We will adjourn until the next panel.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We'll resume the second half of the meeting.

Welcome, witnesses.

We welcome Ms. Charlotte Bastien, the Acting Assistant Deputy Minister of Strategic Oversight and Communications; Mr. Bernard Butler, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Strategic Policy and Commemoration; Mr. Michel Doiron, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch; and Ms. Elizabeth Stuart, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services Branch.

We have 10 minutes available for—

4:35 p.m.

Michel Doiron Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Mr. Chair, we have no opening comments, so we'll turn it right over to the questions.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Lovely. This is great.

Okay, we'll get started. Our first questioner shall be Mr. Kitchen, for five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here again to talk to us.

I brought up a question a couple of weeks ago dealing with the posters that are being done. I'm just wondering if I could get clarification on the budget. There's talk of $180,000 allocated for funds related to government advertising programs. Is that the amount for these posters that are being sent out, which have phone numbers that take forever to get through to?

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Michel Doiron

Thank you for the question, sir.

Just to clarify, by the posters, do you mean the articles that went into the newspapers and things like that, or is there another poster?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

No. It's the poster that is being sent out to organizations, and so on. It's a nice poster and it states that this is a crisis and gives a line number to call, but when you call that number you're on hold and people can't get through. I brought that up in committee here a couple of weeks ago, and I'm just wondering if this $180,000 is allocated for that.

4:35 p.m.

Charlotte Bastien Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Oversight and Communications, Department of Veterans Affairs

We do have a budget for advertising, and we do have a budget for producing communications material. I'm not sure of the specific reference, but I'll get back to you. We do have a budget to provide posters of that nature but also for other types of communications materials, whether it be for awareness of what's available regarding emergency assistance, some of the programs that were put in place last April, some of the programs that will be put in place next April, or some of the commemoration activity that has been under way.

4:35 p.m.

Rear-Admiral Retired) Elizabeth Stuart (Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs

I'd like to add that, as it relates to the supplementary estimates (A), this funding is related to government advertising programs, and it's a horizontal item for the federal government writ large. It largely has to do with the remembrance campaign of the Government of Canada this fiscal year.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

It's more the remembrance campaign. The advertising that gets put out for these posters, then, would fall into which budget?

4:35 p.m.

RAdm (Ret'd) Elizabeth Stuart

It would typically fall into either the outreach and communications budget, or specifically into one of the service delivery budgets, depending on the situation.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Because I'm not an accountant, please define what a horizontal item means.

4:35 p.m.

RAdm (Ret'd) Elizabeth Stuart

Okay. I guess that is government-speak for initiatives that have a broad reach across several government agencies and departments. The lead for this one is actually the Treasury Board Secretariat. We have but one part that we play into the larger initiative.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

You may have heard my conversation earlier with the minister, dealing with the issue of the suicide hotline or the assistance line. Obviously, I have some concerns, and Mr. Doiron and I have chatted a bit about that.

In the preamble of our study, “Mental Health of Canadian Veterans: A Family Purpose”, we talked about improving the transitional support between Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs, and including recommendations that could ultimately be used in the development of a coordinated suicide prevention program. Recommendation 13 was that VAC and Health Canada work together to make the Veterans Affairs Canada assistance service available through online chatting and accessible through multiple platforms.

There was great fanfare around this suicide prevention strategy that we have, and we have this line and we have this system. However, veterans have been contacting me and telling me this system doesn't work. We're spending money on this to try to talk people from that cliff edge they may be on.

I'm wondering, first, how much money we're spending on this line—because if we are, we're wasting it—and two, what we can do to make certain it isn't wasted.

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Michel Doiron

We're spending approximately $1 million a year on that line. I'm rounding the figures, but it is approximately $1 million a year. Last year we had over 1,300 calls and referrals. This year it's around the 1,600 call mark.

Following your comments a couple of weeks ago at another committee meeting, they came back to me. We contacted Health Canada, because this emergency line is run by Health Canada. We relayed our concerns. I'm not debating the information you brought forward, but if that happened, I'm extremely concerned, because a person who's calling that line is supposed to get a certain level of service.

There are times of the day or certain points when the lines are busy, and they are given three different options. It's quite clear up front. You can wait, give us a number for us to call you back, or call 911 if you're in crisis. Those are the three options.

We have followed up with them, and we've asked for a deep dive. What has happened here? Did something actually happen?

I don't know if I will ever be able to get to the bottom of the case that you brought to my attention, to be honest. They get a lot of cases, but we take it extremely seriously. Our chief medical officer, Dr. Courchesne, who has appeared in front of this committee on more than one occasion, is talking with them to ensure that type of event doesn't happen again.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We will have to stop there. We're a good minute over time.

Mr. Bratina, you have five minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Welcome back, everybody.

On backlogs, I'm confused about how files are dealt with and whether they are closed or not, because I have had individuals come to my constituency office with a certain request. I found out later, bumping into a person, that “Yes, it was all great. I got the benefit.” I ask, “Is that it? They say, “No, I have another one.”

Can you ever close a file? It must be fairly complex to keep statistics on things like backlogs and so on.

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Michel Doiron

It's not that complex to keep the statistics. We're actually really digging in to what the statistics are.

It is not easy to close a file, because we're talking about a disability award or a disability pension. We're talking disability. We're talking dealing with health professionals. We're talking medical appointments, so on and so forth, depending on the case. They're not all complex, let's be honest.

The reality is that we are working really hard to facilitate that. Since, I don't know whether it was my last appearance or the one before, we've actually really drilled down on the numbers and on where the files are in the process. Last Friday we had approximately 4,000 files waiting for documentation from either a medical professional or the veteran. When you look at the pending, that's all in the pending. But at the end of the day, the reality is that we have a backlog, and at the end of the day, it's taking us too long to adjudicate.

We have implemented a lot of new initiatives, integrated teams. The files aren't bouncing around between units. You had a unit of juniors, nurses, doctors. The file goes here. Then you send it to the next person, where it stays a couple of weeks on the shelf until somebody takes it off. Then that person does it, and says, “Oh, I have to send it to a doctor”. That takes a couple of weeks.

We have this process that we've piloted, and we're going to go full hog on it, because now the team is integrated. I go to you and I give you the file, you look at it right away, and we make a decision. A file that would have taken eight months, with eight conditions.... That's the other thing people don't often mention. They come forward. It's not one condition. If you're coming forward with hearing loss, period, that's pretty straightforward. What they're coming forward with is eight different conditions. A file like that could take eight or nine months. They did it in half a day, with one letter to the veteran.

Now, let's not say we've won the battle yet, because we're far from having won it. There's still a lot of work to be done, but we are really starting to put some of the stuff.... We've now drilled down. We now know where the files are. We knew that before, but I wanted clarity. What I've learned in 29 years of operations is that you can fix problems, but if you're not fixing the right one, you're just creating something else somewhere else. We've really been digging in to that.

We have a very complex system. I think everybody around this table knows that. The biggest issue is that we have huge amounts coming forward. Last month, November, was our biggest month in history—48,000 files went out the door. Unfortunately for me and for the veterans, 5,400 files came in.

We've doubled the production of our employees, and it's still not enough. We're looking at all avenues. The deputy and the minister talked about some. We're adding staff. We're adding new processes, eliminating steps. We still have a ways to go. We can do better, and we have to do better.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

It's not fair to discuss individual cases. I know it sounds awful, and you say, “Why did you do that?” You need all the details.

One thing that keeps coming up is that a veteran asking for a benefit will say, “I have this physician's report, but they won't accept it.” What's that all about?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Michel Doiron

That's a great question. It's one that annoys me.

What happens is this. If it's a complex case, and depending on what is written on the form, our nurses refer it to our own doctors for, I'll call it, a second opinion, for an assessment. We're actually working on limiting the number of times that happens.

With all respect to doctors, and I know there are a couple around the table, sometimes the notes are not very clear about what the diagnosis is, and then we do have to do it. However, when it is clear, we try to avoid sending that to our doctors, because it's twofold. It's frustrating for the veteran, but also it's causing delays in the processing. If it goes to a doctor and then our doctors have to look at it, and sometimes they have to send additional information to a doctor and get some more forms filled out, you're just adding all this time to the process. We're doing some process re-engineering to make sure that's being—I won't say eliminated as it will never be eliminated—at least decreased.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Mr. Johns.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you.

First of all, thank you for your service and for your work.

We know that the government is only meeting half of its 24 self-identified service standards. Some of them predate this government. Some are getting worse under this government.

Based on your current planning and priorities, when do you expect Veterans Affairs Canada to meet all 24 service standards?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

Michel Doiron

Services fall under me, so I will try to answer that, but I don't have a date. I can't give you date.

Even if I had a date, I can't, because we've had a huge increase in.... I'll just touch on adjudications.