Evidence of meeting #107 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was housing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cheryl Forchuk  Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute
Philip Ralph  National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada
Lieutenant-General  Retired) Stuart Beare (Chair of the Board, Soldiers Helping Soldiers
Karen Ludwig  New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.
Shaun Chen  Scarborough North, Lib.

4:25 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

They become homeless.

4:25 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

Right. Knowing that transition, how do we improve that? What about in cases where the veteran has a service dog, the veteran has children or the veteran is female? How do we improve on the data collection so that when we're working on policy development, it is based on evidence?

4:25 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

You mentioned service dogs. As program director of the the largest funder of service dogs for veterans in Canada, I can tell you that it's a misunderstood field in many ways. A service dog, although it can change and literally save lives, has to be introduced into a stable environment.

Often what happens is that you have somebody reaching out in desperation for something. The additional cost and having to care for a dog.... As anybody who has a pet dog knows, it takes a certain amount.... The in-clearing has to do a proper job of making sure that the house is stable enough to support that dog so that the dog can do the work. If you end up with a person who is marginal having a service dog, it's an extra burden on that individual.

4:25 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

It's a challenge. No one wants to admit they're in the desperate situation of being homeless, let alone a very proud and honoured veteran, but turning to a public service where you may stand the risk of not being able to take your dog in, where you may not be able to take your children in, and certainly in situations where women are vulnerable is a scary thought.

I know I'm going to be short on time, so I'll just ask a question of General Beare.

In terms of the transition and in terms of training, one of the things we've heard before the committee is that there are many members who have trained within the Canadian Armed Forces to be, let's say, an electrician, a plumber or an engineer, but during that transition from CAF to civilian life, on the civilian time frame their credentials have not been recognized. If we had a better way to get recognition for the credentials, do you think there would be a better route to effective transition?

4:30 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

Yes. For those who want to stay in the workplace, facilitating that journey would be brilliant. There are non-profits that are in that space now. I'm sure you know some of them—Helmets to Hardhats and others. At the end of the day, the industry regulators and the provincial regulators of standards, the advocacy with them to accommodate the lateral movement versus the bottom-up movement of people with these skills, and the quick certification of those skills would have a positive effect, absolutely.

4:30 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

Just on that, before I had the honour to be elected, I was in education, and we heard that often: There was a lack of recognition of skills from province to province. I think that's certainly not only an important transition; it's also a validation.

If people have worked 20 years in a field in the military, why can't we get that credential recognized or better fit in terms of curriculum and “credentialization” within the military so that it's a more successful, more seamless transition?

4:30 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

As an old fellow who used to run the army training system, I can say that we went to every length to make sure we were leveraging the best of what industry was providing in terms of qualifications, militarizing them where and how it was necessary, to facilitate that certification once folks decided to go commercial.

I know there is advocacy going on, but as you say, it's province by province, sector by sector. The health sector won't be told by anybody but the health profession about how to run their standards. That advocacy and engagement with them is very welcome and very important. It's not just legislators and industry; the non-profit sector also has a huge role to play here. Some of the best transition experiences are delivered by the non-profit sector.

4:30 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

That goes back to your point about links and collaboration.

4:30 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

Yes.

4:30 p.m.

New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.

Karen Ludwig

Okay.

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Mr. O'Toole.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

General, I like how you used the phrase “sustaining a relationship”, because I think that's the goal. That's why in the late 1920s the Legion was created and tasked by Parliament to do this before there was a Veterans Affairs. The trouble now is that modern veterans by and large don't join the Legion, so there isn't that relationship, directly or indirectly. I think in many ways we can find partnerships. Even some of the groups like Send Up the Count and others are doing that. That includes your group and Phil's group.

I'd love to hear from the other two on my original question. A few years ago—Kent was here—we had Joe Tilley and his wife Penny-Claire talk about their son Spencer, who died as a result of addiction in the forces and leaving the forces. They were sharing their learning. The surgeon general was there. It was one of the most powerful and tragic speeches I've heard.

Once again, it's the addiction piece. I hear steady complaints about Homewood. I hear your point about let's not have it so that there's a military culture within it, but I do think.... I have a very good, very high-profile friend who just left, after 30 days, and he was very public with his addiction treatment. He sought out the right type of place to go to. Should we almost credentialize certain programs and provide the veteran with the funds to find it themselves?

Phil and Stuart, I'd like to hear any thoughts you have on the addiction piece, because I think that's the first step in the risks toward housing.

4:30 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

I think you're right, Erin, that veterans naturally need to go to someplace where they feel they're understood. When we're trying to certify clinicians in our programs as Wounded Warriors Canada clinicians, we have three criteria. If somebody is a good individual counsellor, that's great, but can they work with a group? That's the way we do our things. As well, do they understand trauma? As a third piece, do they understand and value the values of uniform service? If they don't meet one of those, then they can't counsel and they can't be part of our clinical team, because they won't be received by the veterans.

We've toured, as part of our partnerships in learning, a number of the organizations—that all end in the word “wood”—around the province. Some we felt really positive about, and some...you know. And they're kind of conscious of that. I know that Bellwood in Toronto was trying to create almost a zone where if veterans were being treated, they would feel a little bit more comfort and feel valued as veterans.

That meaning piece, that identity piece, is an important piece. Our national patron, Roméo Dallaire, talks about that as always being part of the struggle with mental health. That identity piece is so critical: “You just threw me in with all these...and I've served my country. This doesn't make any sense. I don't feel valued.” Whether or not that's right or wrong, that's how they feel. You have to accommodate that so that you can gear up for success.

Yes, it's a real problem; I agree with you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

General, do you have any thoughts on that?

4:35 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

I'm a, “yes, and”, guy, so yes, there's credentialing, if you will, so the interventions are centred on the person, as opposed to centred on the deliverer. The person is the point, not what they do. They need to be connected to the other parts of life, because they'll either help or aggravate the addiction.

One of the directors on our board is the executive director of the Ottawa Mission, and the Ottawa Mission's mission is not shelter, it's recovery, but it includes shelter. They see the whole person, and they try to diagnose and then case manage the person through all the things that are necessary to support recovery, starting with addictions in those cases where it's a factor. However, it's not addictions alone, it's addictions and vocations, addictions and preventive medicine, addictions and financial well-being, addictions and— It's not a thing, it's one of the things that's aggravating another thing. It's a symptom of a deeper problem.

I think it's a “yes, and” proposition.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

General, you talked about training on VAC at basic training, and I used to talk about this as minister. What about the U.K. model where, from recruitment to training to deployment to training others to veteran, it's all under DND? Please reply in less than one minute.

4:35 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

I'm silent. I'm just kidding.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Reply in 30 seconds.

4:35 p.m.

LGen (Ret'd) Stuart Beare

There is always merit in asking ourselves what we're trying to do, re-evaluating what we're trying to do or prevent and re-evaluating how we're doing it. Instead of assuming we have this tool box and these are the only tools we're going to use because that's our tool box today, for tomorrow.... We're always re-evaluating what we're trying to do and/or prevent, and always being constructively critical and curious about other ways to do that and not dismiss alternative views.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Chen, you have six minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Shaun Chen Scarborough North, Lib.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Lieutenant-General, Captain, Doctor, thank you very much for being here. You folks represent the great work that is being done to support our veterans. At the same time, while veterans may be in contact with you and the organizations that you work with, they are often out there seeking service from traditional homeless shelters, for example.

Dr. Forchuk, you talked about those traditional homeless shelters as being too unstructured, and you also pointed out an absence of research on indigenous homeless veterans, save one study that has been done. To me, this speaks to the need for more focused, culturally relevant programs and services to support veterans. It sounds to me that there is a dominant culture out there in the traditional services that is not meeting the needs of veterans.

Lieutenant-General Beare, you pointed out how the language that is used during an intake, for example, “Are you a veteran?” versus, “Have you served?” can be very important when making sure that veterans receive the services they are entitled to.

With this situation, what do you believe is necessary? How do we disrupt that dominant culture? Is there a lack of training on the ground for these traditional service providers? How can government support those efforts to make a difference?

4:40 p.m.

Beryl and Richard Ivey Research Chair in Aging, Mental Health, Rehabilitation and Recovery, Parkwood Institute Research, and Assistant Director, Lawson Health Research Institute

Cheryl Forchuk

We do have a lot of that information in our training manual, because it's also for people in the sector serving the homeless to be aware of those issues, particularly around structure. Being one minute late for an interview can put off the development of a therapeutic relationship in a way that has no meaning for the other people who will be served. People on both sides need to understand those very important issues.

Again, we have to be careful, because a lot of the data is based on shelter use, and the homeless are only going to the shelters occasionally. The structure, the re-identifying with military culture, reconnecting, and the role of cultural brokers who understand both the idea of military culture, as well as homeless shelters bring those two worlds together to have a cohesive treatment plan.

4:40 p.m.

Scarborough North, Lib.

Shaun Chen

Thank you for that.

Captain Ralph, you're the national program director of Wounded Warriors Canada, and, Lieutenant-General, you are with Soldiers Helping Soldiers. Can you talk about the importance of incorporating veterans into helping veterans? We've heard many times about the connection that veterans themselves can bring to that work. Because they've experienced it themselves, they're able to speak the language better and relate those experiences. Can you talk about the importance and perhaps give some examples of how this is beneficial?

4:40 p.m.

National Program Director, Wounded Warriors Canada

Philip Ralph

You can't assume that just because a person is a veteran that they can be helpful. You have to leverage the strengths of veterans and couple it with people who are experts in certain fields.

For instance, on some of our programs, and I'll take COPE as an example, the clinicians aren't necessarily veterans, but they are people who understand uniformed service and trauma. They're some of the best in the country in caring for people. What we have in that group is one couple who have worked through the program and who come back a year later to give that credibility to the clinicians and that language. They become the peer mentors for that group. So you're using the veteran's strength, but then you're tapping into the expertise that is out there in society.

One of the great difficulties—and we know that it happens—within the veterans space generally is that there are a number of people who are ill and injured. Because they're ill and injured, they really want to take on a lot and help the other ill and injured, and they're not in a position to do that. The program doesn't end up being that successful, and they end up doing harm to themselves, sadly.

You need to take their strengths and surround them with people who are experts and who are supportive from other professions, and use both, so that they can talk to each other and bridge that gap.

4:40 p.m.

Scarborough North, Lib.

Shaun Chen

So veterans can play a very important role in complementing the work of professionals and those who are working to serve veterans. I'm trying to connect the two. If there are services, programs and shelters out there that don't have the expertise in how best to speak the language and work with veterans, do you find that there is a resistance to some of those traditional institutions really working to tap into the expertise and experiences of veterans so that they can better fine-tune how they deliver services?