Evidence of meeting #110 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was use.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marcel Bonn-Miller  Perelman School of Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, As an Individual
Max Gaboriault  As an Individual
Zach Walsh  Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Celeste Thirlwell  Director, Sleep Wake Awareness Program
Karen Ludwig  New Brunswick Southwest, Lib.
Arnold Viersen  Peace River—Westlock, CPC

5:20 p.m.

Peace River—Westlock, CPC

Arnold Viersen

One thing for me that's interesting is there are powerful drugs and there are safe drugs, but they usually aren't together. Safe drugs typically aren't powerful, and powerful drugs typically aren't safe. We get a lot of anecdotal evidence from the marijuana community. It seems to be a powerful drug. How safe is it? Each strain affects people differently. Even with the same strain, there's a whole range of how it affects people. How safe is it? We talk about higher dosages, lower dosages. I just know from my own community, young children.... The oils or the edibles have been a problem.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

5:20 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Zach Walsh

In the 1980s the DEA in the U.S. went to court to have the scheduling changed. The judge was overruled ultimately, but he characterized cannabis as being the safest pharmaceutically active substance known.

In terms of toxicity, the toxicity is nil. There is a risk of acute discomfort that can come from too much. If you have a high dose, it can be a really unpleasant event and that could disorient you so that you might do something; you might get in an accident. In terms of harm to you, it's remarkably safe.

I would say the most substantial risk would be for people who are at risk of psychotic disorders and schizophrenia, and perhaps a psychotic bipolar. In those cases it can exacerbate symptoms and could even trigger a break, but only in people who have that predisposition, and that's a very small amount of the population.

For others I think the biggest risk is some irritation to the throat, a bronchial irritation, not long-term irritation. It's not associated with lung cancers the way tobacco is, so it's very safe.

5:25 p.m.

Peace River—Westlock, CPC

Arnold Viersen

You're talking entirely about consuming it by smoking it. Is there a difference if you're consuming—

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Zach Walsh

It's orally safe as well, with the same risks.

5:25 p.m.

Director, Sleep Wake Awareness Program

Dr. Celeste Thirlwell

Some of my patients will actually have reactions to the carrier oils or the process by which it's been made into oil. Different companies have different carrier oils. Sometimes they're actually reacting to the carrier oil that the cannabis oil is in, not the cannabis itself.

It doesn't suppress respiration the same way an opioid does. If we were talking about opioid medications and the opioid crisis, you are not going to die from respiratory failure if you take a higher amount of cannabis. Yes, it may be disconcerting. Yes, you might be temporarily in an altered state, but it's not something that's necessarily going to be permanent unless, of course, there is an underlying predisposition to a psychotic disorder or some underlying cardiac issues. It's really where the patient is at, like I said, where their brain is at, where they are at physically, by which you decide and you can judge clinically how safe you are.

Really, it's about careful monitoring, and following up and being a true doctor.

5:25 p.m.

Peace River—Westlock, CPC

Arnold Viersen

In the VAC treatment centres, I assume there are doctors there. Do most of our vets have prescriptions for medical marijuana? Is that true or is that not true? Would most of them have prescriptions for it?

5:25 p.m.

Director, Sleep Wake Awareness Program

Dr. Celeste Thirlwell

You have to remember that just until recently, not too far back you would be court-martialled for using cannabis within the military. That ethos still remains in the higher-ups who have been there—

5:25 p.m.

Peace River—Westlock, CPC

Arnold Viersen

Yes, but our veterans are not in the military any longer, so they could go to the civilian hospitals, a civilian doctor, and get a....

5:25 p.m.

Director, Sleep Wake Awareness Program

Dr. Celeste Thirlwell

Civilian doctors aren't prescribing. Most of them will punt to a doctor, “Go see a clinic that will prescribe for you.” Those doctors are in short supply.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

We'll end with Mr. Johns, for three minutes.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

I was going to talk about the risks associated with opioids and cannabis and dive in a little deeper, but I think you've started to cover most of that. Maybe I'll open it a little bit. I asked Max about this, but what would be the one thing you would change in terms of their policies towards cannabis?

I'll start with you, Dr. Thirlwell, and then I'll go to Dr. Walsh.

5:25 p.m.

Director, Sleep Wake Awareness Program

Dr. Celeste Thirlwell

I'm telling you what I'm facing right now. I'm doing the two-year renewal letters for my veterans who are on six, eight or 10 grams. The thing that I have them on the phone right now is, “Am I going to get approved? If I'm not approved, how long am I going to have to wait between being punted back down to three grams to getting back up to where I need to be so that I can continue to function and be there for my family?”

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you.

Dr. Walsh.

5:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Zach Walsh

As one of the few countries where we do cover cannabis for veterans, we should be proud of that compassionate approach. I would hope that we would refrain from trying to roll it back. I think there's an important relationship between physicians and their patients. The VAC should be respecting what the physician and the patient decide is best, and not set those rules, similar to other medications.

There's one thing I would say broadly: Treat it like other medicines.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Right.

Max, perhaps you could you close on this, the importance of the veteran having that freedom to choose, on their healing journey, the dosage, and the different terms of healing, whether it be cannabis or pharmaceuticals. Can you talk about the significance of that?

5:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Max Gaboriault

Okay, I'm going to try. I already forget half of your question.

What I can tell you is that cannabis saved my life, for one. All the other opioids destroyed either my brain or some function, like speech. I had to learn to talk again, actually, after I was put on quetiapine, which is an anti-psychotic. Obviously, there's a place and a time for everything. Western medicine has its chance. I don't see cannabis as a western thing. It's been around for thousands of years. Nobody ever died from it. It even supplies its own antidote. If you take too much THC, take some CBD and it will bring you back to a normal level.

If people want to learn and listen, that would make my life a lot easier. I have no problem educating people, but I had to learn on my own how to manage everything, within the cannabis community, with people who have been doing it for even longer. I make my own oil. I can order it, but the big thing is, I'm being responsible in the way I use it.

When I came back from Afghanistan, all the pills and all that destroyed my liver. My thyroid was shot. It took years to get everything back up. It saved my life in that respect. I can be a dad, not a zombie on the couch who doesn't want to do anything—even leave the house. I think it allows me to function better. Is it perfect? No, it's not perfect, but that's my reality. It will never be perfect. Nobody would say it is perfect, but you know what I'm saying. If I didn't have it, I would be on cocktails of pills, which create suicidal thoughts. I did try in the past, you know. How can I live like this for the rest of my life? It's not a life. Cannabis gave me that option of functioning. I'm medicated right now. I can talk to you without stuttering too much, because it inhibits my stuttering. In that sense.... I don't know, I can function as a normal person.

I do want to mention Dr. Walsh's point on combining with treatment. I completely agree with that. It should be combined with some treatment. I went to Camp My Way in B.C., which we talked about. It changed my life completely. Stop looking at it as a medication, but maybe more as a holistic approach, as with horses, dogs and this and that. It's a tool. If you look at it as a medication or drug, you need to get educated.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

The chair's looking at us to close, but, Max, we're glad you're here. Your testimony has taught not just me a lot, but all of us a lot.

5:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Max Gaboriault

I hope so.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

We're really grateful to all of you. Thank you so much.

I'll pass it to the chair.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for the excellent testimony today.

If there's anything you'd like to add to it, you can send it to the clerk and he'll get it to us.

That ends our time for today's meeting.

Mr. Sheehan is moving a motion to adjourn.

(Motion agreed to)

The meeting is adjourned.