Veterans Affairs Committee on June 19th, 2017

[Gp Capt Mark Heffron]

No, that's a difficult one. For some of them, when we talk about transitioning, we're talking about being housed and in gainful employment up to 12 months after they have left, so it is really the housing and the employment status of the individuals that is the main issue. Some of them seem to take longer to establish themselves in a permanent form of employment. That seems to be the main issue.

The issues around illness, etc., are a lot less.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

You mentioned homelessness, and I know that homelessness very often ties into mental illness, not just in veterans but it is estimated that at least 60% of the homeless overall have inadequately treated mental illness.

With regard to your veterans who might be homeless or those who have mental illness who may have just dropped off the radar, are not contacting you, and haven't left any contact information, what are the challenges and possible solutions you have for reaching these vulnerable veterans who have dropped off your radar?

[Gp Capt Mark Heffron]

In the past, we didn't track our veterans when they departed. Those who left at the end of the Second World War, and those who were in the national service did their statutory period of time, maybe a year or two, and they disappeared off the radar. Of the older veterans we have, the only way we are able to track them is if they are earning a pension from the armed forces.

Of course, that has been put right in the last few years or so. We track them very well now. We reach out to them and we do a check at six months, we do a check at 12 months, and we're able to follow those veterans as they leave the services now. However, turning back the clock is a difficult piece of work.

We are attempting to overcome this by working with the other government departments. Again, I believe that Rob may have briefed you earlier. We don't have a veterans department. Veterans are, first and foremost, members of society, so it falls on all the different government departments to look after them, including the Department of Health, the National Health Service, the Department for Communities and Local Governments, and the devolved administrations. You have to remember that Scotland, Ireland, and Wales do operate slightly differently. It falls on everybody to look after them.

Everybody is setting up systems to try to track them. One of those is through local general practitioners for doctors' surgeries. We are making training available to all our general practitioners across the United Kingdom on veterans. We believe that there should be between 10 and 20 veterans coming through any GP office at any stage, so we think it is right that every GP should be aware of and may have armed forces veterans in their community. We train them and then we allow them to reach back to us. Therefore, we can establish these links.

The other thing we're trying to do, which is a little bit further off, is that we have a census in the U.K. periodically and in the next census, due in 2021, we are trying to place questions around service in the armed forces and veterans' status, so hopefully people will respond to us. I know that's anonymized and it won't give us names and addresses and details, but that will help to inform us about the locations where we have concentrations of veterans as well.

With the census work and the work with the National Health Service and GPs, we are trying to bridge all of those gaps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here with us.

We have been conducting a number of studies, some in relation to transition. We have also just completed a study on mental health and suicide, so I'm going to try to glean from your expertise in relation to a number of things.

First of all, you talked about the two different pension schemes, the second being the armed forces compensation scheme. I wonder, what are the wait times for accessing pensions and what kind of proof is needed to determine whether or not an injury is service related? How do you come to that conclusion or how do you determine that, in order to award a pension?

[Beryl Preston]

I can take that one.

Basically, if someone falls under the armed forces compensation scheme, they can put a claim in while they're still in service.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Go ahead.

[Beryl Preston]

Under the armed forces compensation scheme, the people who think they have a problem and wish to make a claim, at any time while they are in service, can put a claim in and then it will be assessed to see if they're due an award.

With mental health issues, it is something that is more difficult because it's not like breaking an arm or something, so sometimes things take longer to appear than others. It might be that they present problems a couple of years after the incident, in which case, they would put a claim in and it probably wouldn't have gone to its conclusion, so it's quite possible we would pay an interim award. We would then review it again in a year's time to see if that is relevant to how their problems have progressed and we would reassess it then.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[Beryl Preston]

Did that answer your question? Did that cover all your points?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That's fine. Thank you. I appreciate your response.

In terms of appeals, I know that there is an appeals process in place, but I wonder about the composition of the appeals tribunal and whether you could explain how it works. I understand there's the possibility of an appeal, but exactly to whom do people appeal?

[Beryl Preston]

Basically, if someone's not happy with the award they received, they have access to an appeal. First, it will be reconsidered by DBS Veterans UK, and if they're not happy with that, it then goes to the first-tier tribunal. That would be made up of a legal person, a medical person, and an ex-military person.

The applicant can go to the appeal. Sometimes if they don't want to go to the appeal, it can be held in their absence. They will also have someone, usually from the Royal British Legion, or a solicitor acting pro bono, and they'll go along to the appeal hearing. Then the case would be discussed. Maybe the findings will be that they have the correct award, or it might be that the appeal finds that their award should be upgraded. That is to say, it will be considered by a legal judge, by someone from the medical profession, and also someone who used to serve and can understand all the ramifications of having been in the military.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[Rob Rowntree]

I think Yvonne might be able to help as well. Yvonne from Norcross is our delivery expert.

Yvonne, is there's anything you want to add?

[Yvonne Sanderson]

Beryl covered the composition of the tribunal, which is what Ms. Mathyssen wanted, isn't it?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

[Yvonne Sanderson]

In terms of the process, if an individual isn't satisfied with the decision of the first-tier tribunal and there is a point of law, the individual can apply to the upper-tier tribunal, which is our equivalent of the court of appeal, for a further determination on that case.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much. There have been a number of discussions about the process we use here, and some have expressed dissatisfaction. I was very curious about the level of satisfaction that veterans experience with your system.

I also noted that there was a cohort study done in 2009, wherein you looked at the risk factors for suicide in all those who left the U.K. armed forces between 1996 and 2005. In the information I received, essentially it was discovered that suicide was highest among young males within a short time, two years following discharge, which is quite different from what we're finding here. The highest level of suicide among Canadian veterans is from ages 40 to 56.

In light of the work that you had done, do you know what was determined from that study in regard to the kinds of preventative strategies you could undertake?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I do apologize. We're over the time limit. Please make your answer concise and we'll have to move on from this.

[Gp Capt Mark Heffron]

Okay, I will be brief.

You are right; that is the correct detail. The study was, of course, done a number of years ago.

We are attempting to do more work in transition with our personnel before they leave the services. There is a program that we are trying to put together, policies on transition, before people leave, including assisting their families. We find that tends to help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina, you have six minutes.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks to all our panellists.

First of all, we have been dealing with tensions that exist between the defence and the veterans ministries, which had in the past been two solitudes, so the transition issues are something that has come before our group.

With regard to the United Kingdom, what is the interaction and relationship between the British Armed Forces and the veterans group? Is it seamless? Do they work well together? Have you made improvements over the years? How does that work in the United Kingdom?

[Gp Capt Mark Heffron]

One of the things that we've been sure to introduce is what is called a tri-service referral form, which means that anyone within the services who, by their commanding officer, is noted as “may have a potential issue upon discharge” can be referred to the veterans welfare service up to 12 weeks' prior to discharge. That therefore means that individuals are still provided with support for the final 12 weeks by their armed forces unit, but also by the veterans welfare service, so that when they leave on that Friday, their last day in service, we can immediately pick them up on the Saturday morning. It means it's a lot more seamless in that transitional piece.

A whole part of the strategy of the British Armed Forces has been to encourage through service transition so that when you join the service you are always thinking that you know you're going to leave at some point so let's ensure that we put things in place as we go through the career milestones. Therefore, when they become a veteran, things are already in place and our relationship as Veterans UK with the wider armed forces is certainly of a good standard.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you very much.

Earlier the comment was made that on pension schemes there are several running at the same time. I'm wondering if there's any confusion about that. We've had problems with veterans not being sure exactly what awards or benefits they're entitled to, and there's difficulty in working through the paper process to find that out.

With all of the schemes you have, do you find that it works well, or are veterans in the United Kingdom still trying to determine what it is exactly that they should be applying for?

[Rob Rowntree]

My comments in my opening remarks were about the armed forces pension scheme, and it was just really to say that this scheme has been evolving over time. We had a pension scheme that was called armed forces pension scheme 1975, then we had a 2005 scheme, and then more recently a 2015 scheme. There's no choice for the veteran there. They either served a number of years in one scheme or another. There is no choice; they just apply for a pension. Now, getting them to remember to claim for pensions is a challenge that we have because a number of people will serve five, six, or seven years earlier on in life, which doesn't give them a qualifying pension immediately when they leave, but it does qualify them for a pension at age 60. Trying to get hold of everybody who did serve and remind them to put in a claim is a challenge.

In terms of the schemes for compensation and injuries, those again are set very much in terms of chronology. It's either the war pension scheme if it's before a certain date, and the armed forces compensation scheme up to a certain date. Really, from the veterans' point of view, it's relatively straightforward. If they want to apply for compensation, we'll tell them which scheme they can apply for given the date that it happened, and with the armed forces pension scheme it's merely a matter of how many years' service they had in each of the schemes, and if any of the schemes do cross over from one to the other. It's pretty much set out.