Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[Gen Walter Natynczyk]

I think what we're talking about is that in order to support our colleagues in PSPC with regard to Phoenix, we have been trying to put some of our administrative and previous pay compensation folks into a position to assist in dealing with some of the significant Phoenix pay issues. We tried to do it by creating a group of pay clerks who would assist, but unfortunately they didn't have full access to the Phoenix pay system. In September, we seconded 24 of our administrative clerks, and some of them were previous compensation advisers. We have been able to second them into Public Services and Procurement Canada so they can have full access to Phoenix and actually resolve many of the issues with regard to Phoenix.

That's the only change that I'm aware of in the last few months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

That ends our time today for both of you.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Could I take a moment, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

There is a point of order.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I in no way want to lead this committee astray. I was incorrect in the number 40%, and I feel badly about that, because I don't in any way want to diminish this government's commitment. It, in fact, is 20%.

It's very important, and I will re-emphasize I feel badly that I got that number incorrect. I do not want it to diminish the incredible amount of money that has been committed to veterans in the past two years by this government on behalf of our veterans and the needs of our veterans.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I have another point of order.

You can't just throw numbers out of the air. The minister spoke about the largest increase in spending in decades, and also said that those numbers had withered over decades.

I am wondering, Mr. Chair, if the minister can supply to this committee, so that it can assess those numbers—

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, that's not a point of order.

With respect, that has nothing to do with the rules of the committee and the engagement of the rules.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're getting into debate.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

So then it would be an order paper question.

No problem, I'll look after that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank the minister and deputy minister for taking time out of their day to testify, and for the knowledge they brought today.

We'll recess for a couple of minutes, and then we'll come back with our next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Good morning. I'd like to call the meeting back to order.

During this last part of the meeting, we're going to have to shorten the rounds of questioning. There's no testimony coming from the witnesses, but I will introduce them. I think everybody knows them all well. For the new people on the committee, we have Bernard Butler, the assistant deputy minister for strategic policy and commemoration; Michel Doiron, the assistant deputy minister of services delivery; and Elizabeth Stuart, the assistant deputy minister of the chief financial officer and corporate services branch.

We'll begin with rounds of questioning. We'll start with six-minute rounds.

We are dealing with the supplementary estimates (B). Also, we will need time for a vote on these at the end of the meeting.

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for being here today. I'm going to get right into it.

Mr. Doiron, when you last appeared before this committee, you told us that improving processes to reduce the wait times veterans faced was an ongoing effort. It's been going on, at least since you arrived at Veterans Affairs. At the time, you committed to providing us with briefing notes that contain recommendations regarding how to improve those processes. That was almost a month ago. When will you be providing us with those briefing notes?

[Michel Doiron, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs]

The briefing notes have all been gathered. Since they were not bilingual, we cannot provide unilingual products to the committee. They are being translated. Once translation is finished, you will be receiving the briefing notes. They're all ready. We just have to get them translated.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The reason you haven't got them back to us in a month is because of translation?

[Michel Doiron]

It's not only translation, but we also had to make sure that we had the proper briefing notes. We had to get the briefing notes from all sources and make sure there was no personal information contained within the information that we sent up.

That has all been accumulated and it's now moved over to translation. It's on its way.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

The minister just provided testimony today, which indicates that we can expect an announcement on the lifetime pension issue before the end of the year. This is the centre of the Equitas case, as you know. On many occasions, since I've been in this role, which is a short period of time, I've had contact with many of the principal people involved with the Equitas case.

As you know, the government decided to re-engage in the court case, after the abeyance agreement ran out. The appeal court still hasn't rendered a decision on where that would be. The Equitas people were in Ottawa prior to Remembrance Day articulating pretty clearly what the lifetime pension conditions are or the parts of the program that they thought it should be.

The reason I bring that up is that, when we look at the supplementary estimates (B), there are no appropriations for lifetime pensions.

When we anticipate an announcement that the minister has promised by the end of the year, how do we square that with no appropriations for lifetime pensions?

In your roles, can you explain how that squares?

[Michel Doiron]

I can start, but then I'll turn it over to my colleague.

We have to remember that supplementary estimates (B)—and our chief financial officer will explain it—are in-year budgets. With the announcement, the pension for life, or whatever the government decides that it will look like, would not be within this budget cycle, obviously. You have to go through not only cabinet approval, but also a budget cycle and everything else. There's a whole process.

That is why it is not contained within supplementary estimates (B). However, I will turn it over to our chief financial officer, who may want to add a lot more to that.

[Rear-Admiral, Retired) Elizabeth Stuart (Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Michel.

I would just like to add that supplementary estimates, as I'm sure all are aware, is part of the normal parliamentary approval process to ensure that previously planned government initiatives receive the necessary funding to move them forward.

For Veterans Affairs Canada, this means presenting to Parliament on the spending requirements that were not sufficiently developed in time for inclusion in the main estimates or new initiatives that were approved after main estimates. This includes items that were announced as part of budget 2017, as well as funding approvals through submission to Treasury Board for the 2017 Invictus Games, Remembrance Day, and mental health advertising initiatives.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you for that well-prepared answer.

The Prime Minister, during the last campaign, promised the lifetime pensions as a way to woo the voter base, frankly, and it has been two years since that happened. Every answer we've had in the House of Commons has been that this is coming and it's coming by year-end.

When you mention the processes involved with whatever is announced—because the minister obviously was not prepared to provide details—if it's ever announced, what in your mind would be the logical time frame within which veterans could expect a lifetime pension program to actually be put in place? Frankly, I heard from veterans earlier this week in Vancouver and Edmonton that many veterans are relying on whatever is announced to be forthcoming and not greatly delayed. What period of time is being allowed for the process to unfold where a veteran might be able to see some benefits from a lifetime pension?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Bernard Butler, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Commemoration, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I can speak to that.

At the end of the day, just to reiterate what the minister said, he has been working on this as an issue. He has yet to take it to cabinet. Once it goes to cabinet, it will be cabinet that basically determines how the government will respond to it. It then, as you know, goes through a legislative process. The House of Commons will have to look at it.

Within that, depending on what it is, that will determine how long it might take to implement it, and that would then be part of the legislative program. Parliamentarians would weigh in on that and it would have an implementation date, all linked to the nature of it, the complexity of it, and so on. That, right at the moment, would be an unknown. Clarity will come once the cabinet deals with it and it's put before the House in whatever form it might take.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Doiron, I have asked you this question before and the answer was good, but I think it's a question that can be asked again, because it's about measuring the efficacy of the measures the government is taking and the responses you're getting from veterans, and so on. How are things going in terms of the changes that are occurring on behalf of veterans?