Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2017

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Yes. You have it.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

We have it? All right.

Thank you very much, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Mathyssen is next.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Brigadier-General. It's a pleasure to be able to exchange information. I appreciate that very much.

I have a number of questions. I'm particularly interested in the transition to civilian life. It's impressive, I must say, how you care for your injured service personnel. In terms of the individual for whom it is important to return to civilian life, when does that process start in terms of preparing the veteran?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

This is a very interesting question in Canada. At the Warrior Care in the 21st Century symposium, we heard from your surgeon general that this is a big item in Canada. In Germany it is not such a big item. We have the impression that our soldiers, in terms of living as civilians, have a lot of contact with the civilian life and know what civilian life is about.

We have some courses and training periods with regard to civilian regulations, civilian laws, illness insurance, unemployment insurance, and so on, but it is not a real system of preparing for life. We have a special service in the German armed forces, which I'll translate as “education empowerment”. This service accompanies the soldier when they go to an apprenticeship, to study for whatever, or to be trained for a new job, but there's not a real process for making our soldiers fit for civilian life, because we think they live amidst civilian society and they know about that.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. It's interesting, because one of the things we've discovered in talking to veterans here in Canada is that they are very much cocooned or very much looked after while in the military. Everything is laid out for them, so going into a civilian situation can be very traumatic because it's a different culture. I'm interested in what you say, that in Germany there is already this familiarity with civilian life.

I'm wondering also about the 150,000 euros. Is it a lump sum that is given to a severely injured veteran? Also, to follow up on my colleague's question, is there any follow-up on this lump sum in terms of benefits, or is it simply a matter of “Here's your money; you deal with it”?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Thanks for the question.

Let me just go back to what you said about the veterans in Canada, of their need to be, let me say, “recivilized” in the Canadian society.

I was very interested in hearing this presentation at the symposium down in Toronto. What I'm doing for the time being is to make a comparison between different countries, so I was very happy to see Canada. I was in France, the Netherlands, Israel, and Austria just to see how different societies have their different military societies work, and there are very big differences.

I very much like what you are doing for the soldiers in Canada, and maybe someday we will take an example from Canada, but this has to be rethought. For the time being, this is how we regard soldiers as also being members of civilian society.

On the second question, the 150,000 euros, there is a real discussion on that. This is indeed paid as a lump sum. We have the picture of a soldier as being a very responsible woman or man and knowing what she or he is doing, but in effect, you're correct: some of them are buying a rather big car, and after that there might not be so much left and there is no follow-up from that. Normally the idea was to hand it over and they would have the basis for a new life, maybe fixing a home, building a new home, or starting a new career with it.

It is a lump sum, yes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Finally, I wondered about something in terms of the veterans' families. Once a veteran leaves the service, there is very often a need for care, particularly if there is post-traumatic stress. Do you support the veteran's family in that struggle to look after a veteran, or in some cases to receive training with regard to the care of their veteran?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Thank you very much. You are using the term “veterans”. As I said before, we do not do it in Germany because it has not been defined.

We are just in the middle of the discussion we are having in Germany, and we did have it today at the conference I was at earlier.

Yes, we are going to integrate the family even better and even more. This is a long process. It also depends on money, of course, and it has to be brought to law, which the Federal Ministry of Defence cannot decide on alone. It has to be decided with the Federal Ministry of Finance and the Federal Ministry of the Interior, which is a pretty long process, but it is something we want to do in the next session of our parliament, which just started some weeks ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Go ahead, Ms. Lambropoulos.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

First of all, thank you for being with us today to answer our questions. We really appreciate it.

My first question is going to be about benefits you give to veterans once they've left the armed forces. You mentioned that they receive a transition benefit of up to 75% for a number of years depending upon how long they have served, but I was wondering about those who are not going to stay in the military for work or to be educated. Do you offer any kind of support if they decide to leave completely during or after their transitions?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Yes. There are a lot of different possibilities. Most of all, it depends on whether you're a career soldier or whether you are a temporary career volunteer.

In the case of a career soldier, it is easier. If the career soldier leaves the armed forces in the regular fashion, or if the career soldier is regarded as no longer being fit for the armed forces, he simply gets retirement pay every month, which means a pension. He gets some percentage as a pension, and the normal rate is 72% for his lifetime. It might be less if he leaves the armed forces very soon after being employed in the armed forces.

If they were over the 50% of grade of disability—and I appreciate very much the question from before, because this is a really hard question to be decided by medical officers and by psychiatrists—then they get 80% of the payment of the next higher payment group. That means that they more or less get the same payment they had at the end of their career for their lifetime.

If they're not a career soldier, it becomes more difficult. The temporary career volunteers get both a lump sum and a monthly payment, but only for some time, depending on the duration of their time in the armed forces. They get also an education, and they're entitled to have an education for three to five years, which depends also on the time they were a temporary career volunteer. If they're a temporary career volunteer, there is a big possibility of different payments, be it a lump sum or be it a monthly payment for a special time, but they get no lifetime payments.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I guess I'm going to follow up that question. Do you know how many of the veterans who have served and have left the armed forces end up in the homeless category? Do you have anything that helps them find housing?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Housing support is not what we do. They get support from the social service of the armed forces for their lifetime; that's correct, but the problem is that they have to show up. If they don't show up, they will never get them. It's the same problem with this country as with the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs: if they don't show up, if they're not at least brought in by somebody.... We have a veterans organization, and they might help.

Are there homeless? Of those traumatized on mission, I don't know, but if you look at homeless people, of course there are a lot of soldiers, because we had mandatory service until some years ago. Of course there are soldiers in there, but I cannot give you a number because I do not know, and I guess nobody knows.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I guess my last question would be to ask if the government or the Ministry of Defence partners with other levels of government or with other people offering services in order to ensure that veterans get better services and get whatever they need after transition.

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

Yes. Our veteran has to call—or former soldier, let me say, to avoid using “veteran”.... There's a big discussion that there has not been a definition of “veteran”, so I will avoid it.

Our former soldiers of course get support. They get support from social security, be it health benefits, be it unemployment benefits. After having left the armed forces, they are in the condition of being a civilian member of society.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Go ahead, Mr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Brigadier-General, for meeting with us today.

I want to go back to something you talked about. You said that a soldier who is injured may not be able to perform all of their duties, but can have specific duties. You particularly mentioned—and I've used the same example when talking to people—that a soldier who had lost his legs could serve in his capacity in information technology and that sort of thing.

In Canada we have something called universality of service, which means you cannot be in the armed forces unless you can perform all the duties. As a result, a paratrooper who loses one leg but who could still, as you say, be in IT or something, could not be in the military and is medically discharged.

We have had an issue with soldiers with chronic injuries who are not readily diagnosed or not readily seen, such as a paratrooper who's starting to get chronic back pain or a person who's starting to get PTSD from their deployments. A lot of them are afraid they're going to be discharged because they've come forward and no longer meet universality of service. Sometimes these problems get worse.

Have you ever had this problem in your services, with people hesitating to come forward with chronic injuries, or do they tend to present right away when they have symptoms?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

There is a study right now on the willingness to show disability and show traumatization. This concerns most of all the psychological side of illness. If you have a physical illness, it's very obvious. We also have a problem with soldiers showing up with some chronic diseases.

If you have mission-related trauma or injury, then you are under the protection of the law and you cannot be forced to leave the armed forces. You stay within the armed forces even if you're not totally fit to do military service. This is what our legislation wanted: to give them a kind of social home, let me say, so they are in the armed forces getting paid and getting medical treatment.

These 106 career soldiers whom we took over because they had been traumatized are generally doing a very good job, even though it is not foreseen that they will be able to do a demanding mission and they cannot do field service.

I have to admit—and this is quite true—that we can do this because we have a relatively small number. If there are more and more, then one day we will have to think about different options.

Soldiers with diseases that are not mission-related might very well be declared unfit for military service and then leave the armed forces. Again, as I told you before, if they're career soldiers, they will get a lifelong pension. If they're not career soldiers, they will get a payment for some years, but this will end.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right. Thank you.

Was this concept of having injured soldiers stay with modified duties always the case, or did your country ever have universality of service in your armed forces?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

These laws were created in the years between 2004 and 2010, when we first started in Afghanistan and we saw that we had injured or killed soldiers in Afghanistan. It started with a bomb defusing in Kabul. Some people were killed and some were severely injured. Then we had a bus attack, which was, I think, in 2002, in Jalalabad, just between the German camp and the city of Kabul. Then our parliament started creating laws for that.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right.

I just want to confirm the number of people with this classification. Is it 106 soldiers?

[BGen Bernd Mattiesen]

We have 106 soldiers, yes.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

That is out of a total force of 180,000. Is that right?