Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2018

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Hold on. Can you expand on what the hold up is?

[Guy Parent]

I think it goes back to a comment that was made before. What has happened is that over the years programs and benefits have been developed to meet the needs of people who are coming back from a certain mission. We segregated. A lot of those benefits are now based on where you serve and when you serve, not on what you need. I think until we go back to that area of meeting the needs of people and having a suite of benefits for everybody, it's going to remain very complicated. It's one of those things. There are a lot fewer forms than there used to be, so there is an improvement. There has been a reduction in some of the complexity, but again, with the announcement of new benefits coming into play one or two years down the road, it adds to the expectations and confusion.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You talked about having people who are retired from the forces on the front line understanding veterans' needs—case workers, for instance. We're hearing that from veterans all across the country. We just had veterans camping out here and they're saying that their biggest obstacle is people on the front line not understanding their needs and experiences—the familiarity and empathy that you talked about.

Maybe you can speak a little bit more to that. I know in the U.S. they have a program where one-third of their case workers are former veterans. I don't know how strong our return to work program is in terms of getting veterans back into the fold. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit and the importance of it.

[Guy Parent]

Certainly. I think the issue of case workers and service agents.... You're probably aware that there's now a program of guided support. This means that some of the people in VAC who are providing the service will also help guide our veterans through the system.

A case manager is really managing the person, not managing the situation. Obviously, a lot of those case managers over the years have been burdened with doing more than just looking after a particular case, both the individual and the challenges of psychological care and medical care; they're looking after the whole situation, including giving information on programs. Let us hope that what's happening now is that with the service agent giving guided support, the care manager will be able to actually put their effort on the people themselves as opposed to on the situations.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

They can be a navigator, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Johns, your time is up. I don't know if you had one quick question that you wanted to ask. Then the ombudsman could get back to us on that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

No. That's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Poissant.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Parent, thank you for your testimony.

A number of my friends are veterans. There is one with whom I go motor biking. Also, when I was a city councillor, I was on the council with a veteran. He explained to me that the United States has a program to help veterans go into business and start businesses. He himself has opened up an office to help veterans start a business.

Is that something we could do here? If so, how could we do it?

[Guy Parent]

That’s a good point.

It's already happening. A number of companies provide veterans with services to start a business and the training they need to run a franchise or something like that.

One of the problems with the transition is that, while there are many companies and opportunities for them, there is no central point where people can go for information. A number of things are available, but there is still a communication problem and there is no central point where they could get all this information.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

You also said that veterans should have a satisfying job. What do you mean by “satisfying”? Is one type of job better suited for them than another?

[Guy Parent]

I mean work that meets their financial and cultural needs, as well as their need to feel that they are contributing to the country.

Often, what people are looking for after a military career is to continue serving. They can do so by working in the public service or in a company, but they want work that is satisfying in all aspects, not just financially.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Are there any statistics showing that veterans have a better chance of succeeding in one sector over another?

[Guy Parent]

Studies do not show that sort of detail. Let's say it varies. That said, because of their military culture, most veterans want active work. When they are offered a job or training, the important thing is to meet both their needs and those of the company that hires them.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Eyolfson, we'll go to three-minute rounds with you.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This was a good segue into what I was going to expand on from the previous question regarding the kinds of careers or jobs that people want when they're transitioning. We've talked very often about the concept of universality of service and how we're hearing some indications that the Canadian Armed Forces is reviewing this policy.

Have you heard from veterans who have been released medically but would be able to perform certain jobs in the military, that things might be better in their transition if they were still in the military family, military culture, but in a non-combat role?

[Guy Parent]

Again, that's a good point.

Universality of service is an approach that's been used by the armed forces to make sure they have the required assets to go to missions and perform duties in conflict areas.

I am not in DND right now, but I believe that the chief of the defence staff is looking at how universality of service affects veterans. Certainly now the people who are released medically can go from a period of six months to maybe three years where they are in transition. During that time, they are still employed and paid by the armed forces.

There are some administrative duties. There are tasks that could be carried out by injured members. However, I understand that in the armed forces you need to have boots on the ground. I think that's always the challenge with the people.

One thing about universality of service is that if it exists as an approach and then you are forced out of the forces because you don't meet the universality of service, then you are in fact....Your release, to me, is attributable to service.

I think that's the context of universality of service that's very important to look at.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I would agree completely.

One of the pieces of testimony we've heard from multiple veterans is that they noticed health problems, either mental or physical, but did not report them because they were afraid they wouldn't meet universality of service. Again, the example I use ad nauseam is the paratrooper who's starting to get back pain but doesn't see a doctor about it because if the doctor finds something, then the soldier can't do this anymore, so he's out. He doesn't say anything until he's crippled with back pain, and then they find that there are fractures.

There's also the person who is having a bit of trouble sleeping and doesn't refer to it, and then has full-blown PTSD by the time he's out.

Do you find that there would be an easier transition if in fact service members were not afraid to report their symptoms because of this?

[Guy Parent]

Certainly.

In our study on the determinants of successful transition, one of the barriers was the stigma that prevented people from divulging the full extent of their injuries. Therefore, by the time they did, recovery and treatment were even harder than it would have been had they come in earlier.

That is one of the barriers to transition that we have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Wagantall is next.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

It's very good to see you again, Mr. Parent.

Presently with transition, DND determines, first of all, if there is an injury, and then, if that particular individual can no longer serve, they are basically then transitioned out of the service. It's clear that at this point they do not determine if the injury was service related or not, correct?

[Guy Parent]

Correct.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

We've had two witnesses come to us on this particular study. The ombudsman for DND has said, “As I have said, the Canadian Armed Forces knows when, where, and how you have become ill or injured. The Canadian Armed Forces should tell Veterans Affairs Canada that the illness or injury is attributable to their service, and this determination be accepted.”

Then we had Ms. Elizabeth Douglas, General Director, Service Delivery and Program Management for VAC, come to testify as well. I asked her that question very directly. Would it not be better, if we're truly concerned about making services better for veterans, to have that determination made on the reason that they're leaving the service before they come to VAC? We know that they then have to go through all the records, which are much less accessible. Dealing with proof of service takes months. There's a great deal of stress around that when that determination could be made prior to their releasing so that at least they're off to a better start. Who do you agree with there?

[Guy Parent]

I think that attribution of injury to service is really a moot point. In fact, if I go back to the universality of service, if you release from the armed forces, there's such a thing in the legislation of Veterans Affairs Canada that says that, even though your injury is not due to service, it might have been exacerbated by your service. In fact, really, if you release under this business of universality of service, you are releasing because an injury is attributable to service.