Evidence of meeting #77 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll try this again.
Dave and Jenny, thank you.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis
Testimony-wise, I believe it was just one. If she would, I could stick it in if you have a few minutes, if the committee is fine with that.
12:35 p.m.
Teresa Untereiner As an Individual
Thank you very much for allowing me to speak.
I looked at the wording in the format of today's gathering, which refers specifically to the obstacles to the smooth transition of veterans to civilian life. For so many hundreds and thousands of veterans, I believe there are two pertinent answers to that: first, and most importantly, appropriate diagnosis; second, stigma.
PTSD is very real. It's manageable with treatment, and the outcomes can be positive, but I believe we have an epidemic of misdiagnosis. Dave, and the majority of members who served for Canada who were exposed to the drug mefloquine and poisoned by it, have varying degrees of damage to their brains. They are acquired brain injuries, not just PTSD. The results of this are in mental and physical symptoms. Had Dave been appropriately diagnosed at the time of his release almost 20 years ago, I can only imagine how different and how much better our lives could have been. Even without appropriate treatment at that time, at least there would have been a starting point and at least there would have been an acknowledging of the underlying issue that was preventing his progress with standard treatment for PTSD.
This brings me to the point where stigma becomes a barrier. Twenty years ago I believe there was complicity in the desire to cover up the harmful effects of this drug mefloquine, beginning with the botched drug trial in Somalia, and then the subsequent order to halt the Somalia inquiry. The shame went unchecked for this group of veterans, and for the most part it continues today. Now, if it's not suppression of information and outright denial, then it certainly is such an absence of acknowledgement that you can hear the crickets singing in the silence. This feeds into stigma and creates its own impediment to successful treatment. I want this government to acknowledge the damage this drug has caused, because this trickles down to affect appropriate diagnosis by the medical community in general.
As a spouse of a veteran, my life has been seriously impacted by Dave's mental health. I have stood by feeling helpless at times as Dave behaved uncontrollably in ways that ended possible career futures for him, and this is due to his impossible, unpredictable, and seemingly spontaneous episodes of rage and anger. The best way I can describe it is it's like a parallel reality that he would slip into. I have watched him gather all of his emotional might and force himself to try again and again.
Physical symptoms, such as gut issues, were and are such a serious barrier as well. Having diarrhea greatly impacts your ability to work on a daily regime, and it impedes normal day-to-day functioning. Dizziness and vertigo is not only inconvenient, but downright dangerous in certain work situations.
And for myself, where to begin?
I must admit it's very hard for me to be here. I have given up my life and the majority of my dreams. I gave up many opportunities for careers, because I couldn't leave Dave alone with our twins for more than a couple of hours at a time. I didn't know his disability would be that impactful on my life, and that leads into my own personal sense of shame and stigma because I haven't had a career. I've tried many, and they've had to be halted at many different intervals throughout the last 15 years that we've been together. This is an outward rippling of the effect of the damage this drug has caused and how it has affected us.
I think it's time to recognize mefloquine poisoning and the resultant damage as a significant barrier to smooth transition. There is hope for members of our forces and veterans who have been impacted by exposure to this drug. There are therapies showing considerable promise that greatly reduce the mental and physical side effects of the damage from this drug.
That's all I have to say. Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Let's try this one more time.
Teresa, Dave, and Jenny, thank you very much for coming. I appreciate it. Thank you for having come before the committee before.
Dave, we've talked in times gone by. Since that conversation, I have learned that my children, who love to travel and have that travel bug.... My oldest son informed me that he was taking mefloquine—he did not tell me that until just the other day—and he was telling me how he stopped taking it because he started getting these weird dreams and nightmares. I'm so glad to hear him say that, obviously. I have an opportunity possibly to go to Pakistan in the next little while. When I was there as a child, the medication we had for malaria was different. Definitely, if they offer me mefloquine, it's not even an option as far as I'm concerned.
We know the impact it has had on your life. It's had a tremendous impact, and you have relayed that to us.
This discussion is about transition. We've heard from the ombudsman, basically saying we've studied this to death and nothing has come out of it. We've come up with all sorts of recommendations, and nothing has been done about them.
When we first started, I talked about taking a look at the transitions we've recommended, and whether they have actually been done.
Can you describe to us your transition as you relate from when you transitioned as much as you can.
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I was court-martialled and kicked out. I was given a 5(f) release, the bad one. The individual responsible for that was a Colonel Jorgensen. He's now General Jorgensen and works at VA. I had the unit padre trying to stand up for me. I even heard him. I was at the duty desk. He was yelling at the colonel in his office, “Listen, he has PTSD,” and Jorgensen yelling back, “No he doesn't—he has a discipline problem.”
My transition was like this: there's the gate, load 14 years of your life into an old clapped-out Toyota Tercel, and don't let the gate hit you in the ass on the way out.
The only reason I'm alive is I was one of the first OSISS clients. I'm here because of them. My transition.... I don't know why I'm here, actually, other than thanks to OSISS's stepping in.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
You found OSISS to be very effective in—
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Originally, OSISS was an entity unto itself. It has now been taken over by Veterans Affairs, and it's mandate is directed by Veterans Affairs. OSISS at one time had its own budget. OSISS was extremely effective back then at saving lives. Now it's handcuffed by Veterans Affairs.
I'll give you an example how effective OSISS was. I was literally living in my mom and dad's basement. I could not interact with the public. I was completely non-functional. They facilitated me getting in to see a psychologist that specialized in military trauma. They facilitated my paperwork with Veterans Affairs. A year later when I was able and trying to go to school they facilitated that. There was no red tape. I didn't have to phone the March of Dimes. I didn't have to phone the Legion asking for handouts or anything. If I needed something, they supplied it, and there were no questions asked. There were no 50 forms to fill out, no doctor referral. I would like to go to school. What do you want to do? I have to go and redo my Grade 12.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you all. It's quite some testimony we're hearing.
Jenny, I'd like to go to you first. What concerns do you have about the caregiver allowance that we're going to be bringing forward—the $1,000 a month? I'm sensing you're still caregiving for someone—two now—but you may not be eligible. What are your concerns about, or do you have a concern? Do you think it's a good thing, or are you waiting to see how it rolls out?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
It doesn't concern me personally anymore because my spouse is with the old system. He's going to be the one receiving $600 for me. I won't have access to anything. I am represented by an amount, but he will receive it for me.
What's fantastic with the $1,000 is that it's given directly to the caregiver. When I say it's going to be a game-changer, it could be, because when people are not doing well and they have all the financial power, many spouses are left with nothing. When things go bad and he decides that he's going to buy an RV or whatever, sometimes the end of the month is very tough. This will make a difference not only in terms of dignity but also in terms of identity.
Now, what will be the criteria for accessing it? This is the core of the war. Everything is related to physical injuries. Listen, if your spouse is in bed with no arms and no legs, or they can't walk, can't talk, or can't eat—no problem: you will have that money, if it's enough. However, if he has PTSD, depression, social anxiety....
Teresa mentioned—and she was right—that the problem is with the diagnosis, of course, but also the criteria. This system does not recognize a mental wound. How can I justify to a system that I am needed when he has both his hands and to you it looks as though he can cook his supper? I know he can't do it. If I don't do it, he won't eat. If I don't clean the house, he won't clean it, because the depression, the pills, the medication—you name it—is keeping him sitting on the bench. He won't do anything. He can't.
Therefore, I feel that accessing this money will be a challenge, not to mention that I am certain that this country doesn't even know how many caregivers Veterans Affairs is taking care of. We don't know the numbers. With 200,000 clients with Veterans Canada, I say there are 200,000 caregivers. Can we afford to pay each caregiver who lives at home, who deserves that money? Can we afford it? I don't think so.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
First of all, thank you all, for your testimony and sharing your personal experiences with us. It's so important, and I'm sorry that you've having to live through this difficult challenge.
My colleague, Irene Mathyssen, asked Minister O'Regan in the House in September of last year to initiate a study to determine the long-term neurotoxicology of mefloquine.
Maybe to Dave, what is your opinion? Do you think that a committee study on a specific issue of mefloquine would be beneficial to your cause?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I have no faith in the government actually stepping up and acknowledging this. I've actually had to write that off. My sole focus is reaching veterans individually.
We've been talking about transition for 10 years. You can pull the reports out of the archives. A friend of mine did, and it's the same thing over and over and over again. Is mefloquine going to be any different? No, it's not.
Look at the agent orange fiasco. How many years did it take the government to pony up to help these guys? Oh, yea, living a life of cancer, unable to work, unable to do anything, not able to have a family, that was worth, what? The average payout was $23,000. I have no faith in the government acknowledging this or doing anything about this. A study? Yea. Another study—
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Then in your discussions with veterans from other countries, and I know you've had these conversations—
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
—have you noticed is some countries have a better method of treating survivors of mefloquine neurotoxicology?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
No, every country in the western world is balking at this because of the financial cost of the extended health care associated with people who have been poisoned by mefloquine.