Veterans Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

—to make the public aware that it can solve a problem pretty easily. There's nothing complicated either, just that there is this discrepancy, that it was overlooked and needs to be corrected.

Mr. Clarke's bill will not hit the floor of the House of Commons before the end of this Parliament. Are you aware of that? It's because of the order of precedence that he is in—

[Michael Davie]

Unless you get unanimous consent.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There could be unanimous consent in the House of Commons to accept it. That could happen. The other thing that Mr. Clarke has been advocating for, because it is a simple and completely nonpartisan issue, and would solve a problem, is for the government, if necessary, to put it forward as a government piece of legislation. They could easily do that tomorrow.

Yet that has not happened. I haven't spoken with him in the last week or so to see whether anything has changed on that front, but there is resistance and the government does not wish to take it forward, just like the response you got from Treasury Board.

I point that out because we probably had some of the most powerful testimony we've ever had in this committee, from veterans themselves, and as you know, Mr. Clarke is a veteran as well. So he knows the system. I just have to move on from that to really reflecting on what was just said in the prior hour and actually reading something from the testimony of Ms. Desmond to you and getting your reaction to it.

Would you bear with me to do that?

Okay.

This is directly from her testimony. She talked about a situation called stoicism. She said:

Stoicism, the endurance of pain or hardship without a display of feelings and without complaint, is what you teach these men and women. But when they no longer show or carry this trait, do complain and show feeling, they're simply and honestly told

—and this was out of the mouth of the Prime Minister—

that veterans are 'asking for more than we are able to give'.

What is your reaction to that?

[Keith McAllister]

It's very disheartening to hear my Prime Minister saying something like that. Ms. Desmond and I can comment on what that....

For me, having been in the military for 26 years, when we go through training, it's hard training. We train for the hardness. The old saying back in the day was “a weak mind, a weak body,” so make your mind stronger than your body. So if you got hurt you'd say, suck it up. I'll soldier on through it. That's where that mentality comes into play. And that mentality is still in effect, this day and age, on all the bases.

We train hard. We fight hard. But there's no system to pick up the pieces after we get broken. We have operational stress injuries and stuff like that.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. Kirkland, would you like to respond to that comment that I'm quoting?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I apologize, Mr. Kirkland. We will be down to 30 seconds.

[Glen Kirkland]

Yes. It's super disheartening to hear that coming from our Prime Minister. I feel, too, like I've given too much. I gave up the sight in my eye, my health, my youth, and financial security for my country. I completely feel that the government in Canada has turned its back on the veterans. It's very disheartening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Hello. I would first like to thank the witnesses for being here today to answer some of our questions.

I'm going to begin with Mr. Kirkland. We've heard throughout a lot of different committee meetings that there are many barriers to transition. We are aware that these problems exist. However, one of our goals in doing the study is to figure out how to improve the system, how to improve the transition. I'm going to ask you, because you mentioned you have been considered, in a way, to be a success story, and you do have certain things going on that other veterans might not have going on for them.

I know you said there are many barriers. Can you also tell us what helped you get to the point where you are? Can you shed some light on your own personal situation and how you got there?

[Glen Kirkland]

A lot of my success is a facade. I know Aaron Bedard, who I believe is still in the room, knows that more than anyone else.

Being in a position where you are physically in pain all the time, you have to learn to put on a happy face. In real estate, my face is my money-maker.

What has got me to this place? I have become a success not because of anything that Veterans Affairs or the Government of Canada has done. It's almost in spite of. The transition from military to civilian life was horrific, when I was asked to go to take university courses, to stay in the military right up until graduation, and then they informed me that I would not be able to hold those positions. All that effort was for nought.

What has got me into this position where I am considered a success? I think it's hard work, determination, and putting my health and mental wellness second to nothing else.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask Mr. McAllister. You mentioned a few of your friends who are in CAF, as we speak, especially the one who has 42 years of service, I believe. You were saying he has no access to the paperwork yet and that on April 17 he is going to be released.

Can you give us any recommendations on how we can make this process easier? How long would you recommend CAF members have before their release date to begin the transition? How long do you think it would take?

[Keith McAllister]

I know it took me six months to start the transition, to start to get your medical files, your last medical appointments, any specialist appointments tied up, and then start the paperwork.

The reason he is being released on April 1 is that the release procedures on the bases are changing. No one knows what the process is, so he's not able to get a jumpstart. If he started the release process under the old system, he'd have to redo it all again.

Our recommendation would be to go back to the old days when you had a clerk who was the subject expert in the release. They already knew the process, and they would guide you through the system and help you cross the t's and dot the i's.

The worst-case part of it is that if you make a mistake in your pension package, it could cost you a long time. I know that it took one person in my group eight months to get his first pension cheque.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I was also going to ask about this because I'm not 100% aware of how it works. If, let's say, the paperwork doesn't get submitted by the release date, what are the consequences of that? Have you heard of stories where it didn't happen?

[Keith McAllister]

Yes, I can give you a very horrifying story.

Also, when I found out that I was coming here I reached out to other organizations—the OSISS in Ottawa, and to my psychologist. I asked her if she had anything to put into this.

She brought up the same thing about the release. She had one member who was suffering from OSI and PTSD. He wasn't able to function by himself or do things for himself, and he was being released from the army. She had to engage in his release process and help him out, and no one in the CF had anybody.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Johns, you have five minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, all, for being here and for your important testimony.

Maybe I'll start with Mr. Kirkland. I really appreciate your speaking about the significant importance of return to work and getting veterans back into the workplace.

In the United States I think 30% of their case workers are veterans who have been rehired and trained. I raised this at committee, actually, on Tuesday, with some of the senior bureaucrats who were presenting at committee. They don't have clear targets. They don't have a strong strategy or a plan, despite the veterans hiring initiative and the hiring act, to really take it to the next level.

Maybe you could just elaborate a little more about the importance of having clear targets and having a strong strategy for veterans, and what that does, again, for a veteran coming out.

[Glen Kirkland]

I'm a huge believer that returning to work is key to veterans' success and mental well-being. At the same time, the way the new Veterans Charter is set up, for many people there is no benefit to going back to work because there is a clawback for every dollar they make. So these guys are deciding if they want to risk that security of having that government cheque coming in, by going back to work, when it could fail and then, just as that gentleman was saying, they could wait months and months and months to get back onto programs.

What I am seeing a lot of is that there is no benefit to getting better. Guys aren't getting better because as soon as they get “healthy”, they lose their ability to make an income with the programs that are set up. If they go out and get jobs and start being more productive, then their pension is clawed back, where is the incentive to go back to work? I think it's a really flawed system.

Personally I am not being financially compensated for my injuries. If I decided not to work, then I would be, and I just think that's so unfair. I have a lot of employees and they are mostly veterans and they go to work because that's who they are. As a soldier, you're a hard-working person and you go there—a lazy soldier is not going to make it through training. So these guys need to get back to work, but they also need that security and benefit to go back.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate your feedback, Mr. Kirkland. Eliminating these barriers is going to be critical for us to motivate and inspire people to get back to work.

Mr. Davie, you talked about Mr. Clarke's bill and another barrier for people wanting to get back to work. Can you identify any other barriers that we can eliminate to get people returning to work?

Mr. McCabe or Mr. McAllister, if you want to dive in as well, go ahead.

[Michael Davie]

Yes, specific to the service, which has been my experience, the Veterans Hiring Act was a good initiative to open up all public service jobs to all veterans—great. But as Keith did, I checked with some of my friends who have been through this process recently and they reported all kinds of frustrations.

One concrete thing I thought of before coming here was that if the HR professionals in the public service had guidance on how to do this transition, that would go a lot more smoothly. All of the policy pieces, except for the one that I've noted, are in place so veterans services recognize we get vacation leave, we get sick leave, and our salary carries over. Those are all good things. The HR clerks in the public service don't know that.

I had to fight with the clerks in my department to get my sick leave granted, and it was delayed by a year and a half because it took that long to transfer my pension from the military pension to the public service pension.

I think that's one thing that would help, if the chief human resources officer produced consolidated guidance to say, “This is how we move people from the military to the public service.”

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We keep hearing about the need for a concierge service on everything. Mr. McAllister, I think you alluded to that. How do we help people navigate? Do you want to speak about that need, or if that's an opportunity?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Keith McAllister]

He summed up the process. I know some guys who are going into the public service, and they're doing fine. The transfer of their pension was the biggest issue.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Fraser.

[Charles McCabe]

If I may add, and Keith and I talked about it on the way here today, the homeless veterans have given up. Keith feels that's the case, and he is aware of many of them. That's the point you've made from out west; there's no job, so what's life all about? There's no reason to get up in the morning.

If I may add, and Keith and I talked about it on the way here today, the homeless veterans have given up. Keith feels that's the case, and he is aware of many of them. That's the point you've made from out west; there's no job, so what's life all about? There's no reason to get up in the morning.