Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I'm not sure we have a comparator back to that time.

Go ahead, Sara. Let's give you some air time.

[Sara Lantz, Acting/Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer and Corporate Services, Department of Veterans Affairs]

As of 2018-19, our full-time equivalents were close to 2,900, which is more than prior to 2014-15 when the cut was, which was about 2,300. Prior to the deficit reduction action plans they were about 2,900. We are back up to that level as of last year.

We have done two years of hiring. During last year, we had most of the hiring in place by the end of the year, so this year we are more than 3,000. I think it's around 3,200.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That helps me. Thank you.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

May I also add, however, that especially in field operations, but even on the policy and the corporate side attrition in the field is generally 12%. Not only do we have to augment with additional hires to meet the demand, because more case-managed veterans require case managers and more files coming in require adjudicators, but at the same time, this is a social file and this file is tough.

We have tried to hire more veterans. I have tried to set a goal of hiring 10% veterans. I think the last time I looked, we were at 8% and trying to hire more veterans. At the same time, folks are fragile. We have occupational therapists, social workers and psychologists. This is tough business.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I only have six minutes, so I apologize, General. I certainly don't want to be in trouble with you.

According to the wait times tool on the department's website, we know as of the 19th of this month that the disability claim benefit response time for hearing loss, for example, was 17 weeks, or about four months. For post-traumatic stress disorder, a single condition, it is 33 weeks, which is about eight months. Multiple conditions are about nine months. It just shows you how long people are waiting. That is your tool.

We also know that the veterans ombudsperson has stated that the most frequent complaints in his office are issues around wait times and backlog. One thing he has talked about is that clear action plan.

Can you tell us what the clear action plan is? I also want to note that the longer average turnaround times are for the francophone and women claimants. I would like to know why that is the case.

I heard as well that lack of communication is a challenge, particularly with respect to the process of prioritizing cases. What is the triage model when people come in and make claims, so that you can assess where the urgency is? If you have these huge backlogs, I certainly hope the people with the biggest concerns that are most urgent would be moved to the top of the list, while understanding that we need something to change. I don't want any of our veterans at the bottom of the list.

That's a big question, but I have a limited amount of time and I want you to give me a perfect answer, so good luck with that.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

In terms of the vision.... Poor Michel and his team. I said to them that I want to try to meet the best standards of what Canadians have across the board. Whether that is within provinces or how folks do their taxes, how quickly can we turn around a decision? That's why I came up with the term “turbo vet”, where veterans can go on and get an answer right away.

In terms of the education training benefit or career transition services, as Michel indicated, we are turning around decisions in—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

They're not. The numbers are telling us that it's—

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

For the education and training benefit and career transition service—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, but I'm really needing to talk about this. It's four months if you have hearing loss and eight months for post-traumatic stress. I need to understand that.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

We're trying to do process renewal and to ask what we stop doing to make it better, and also, how we can digitize.

Thirty-seven per cent of all of our claims are hearing and tinnitus. We're trying to figure out how we digitize that, from the audiogram right into the system. Can we make that digital and handle that 37%, so it's all done electronically to the degree that we can, mindful that some veterans don't want to go digital?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I represent a rural and remote community. Many communities don't even have Internet, so it may be a challenge for them.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

We will maintain paper, read analog applications. We have 100-year-old veterans with laptops and iPads—you sent me notes—and we have 20-year-olds who don't want to touch technology. We need to show love and compassion to all of them.

I think with that introduction, I'll hand it over to Michel.

[Michel Doiron]

You're right. I've been here and talked about this before. You all know I'm quite frustrated about this. The volumes have gone through the roof, but it's not an excuse. How can we do it? As I've said to this committee before, adding people is one solution but it's not the solution.

We're working hard on maximizing the use of the My VAC Account and technology. We've brought in new electronic tools. We currently have an innovation hub looking at our process. The first one we're looking at is hearing and tinnitus. They need an audiogram. How can you go from an audiogram, have the system read the audiogram, equate that to a level of disability and then question whether it's related to your service or not? We're exploring using AI to help us in that area. If we could get there, as the deputy said, that's 37%. You'll never get fully 37%—let's not kid ourselves—but probably 25%—let's be reasonable—could be automatic. Then you take your resources and you reinvest them in the other areas of your business.

We're not ignoring the other areas of the business, because for me, mental health is extremely important. How do we facilitate that? Especially we're approving mental health at about 97% on first applications. How can we remove all the barriers and make them faster?

I have to stop because my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

I feel I keep having to cut you off, and you're adding so much.

[Michel Doiron]

I'm used to being cut off, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I apologize, but I let you go on a little longer.

That ends round one, so we're going into the second round.

MP Ruff is up first for five minutes.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

First, thanks for coming in today. Obviously, it's always good to see you, General Natynczyk.

This is the veterans affairs committee so I'd like to point out that today is the 120th anniversary of the Battle of Paardeberg, which was the first time we deployed Canadian troops overseas, and my alma mater regiment, the RCR was recognized. We'll talk about that a little later today when I make a statement in the House.

Going back to some of the questions here, you talked about the desire to hire more veterans. Without a doubt, that's one of the complaints I've been hearing, “It would be a lot better if I were talking to somebody who understood what my service meant and what the challenges are.” What are you doing to get that number up? Your aspiration of 10%, sir, is great. I'd like you to drive it north of 50% if you could, because when people understand it, I think that would speed up the whole process. It would also solve your training challenge because they'd need to be trained on the system, but they'd understand the type of questions being asked.

My second question may be a little more difficult. It's tied to some of the complaints I've been getting. I was shocked at the wait times for a number of currently serving personnel, the number of them and how long it's taking for them to be processed because they have a little more access and availability. Are the files of those currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces being treated or processed any differently from those who are retired? Tied to that as well, because I'm getting some interesting things and I don't have anything I can put a name to, are the files of any of the people who have a sexual misconduct class action suit against the DND being treated any differently? I've been getting indications that maybe they are.

With the delay issue, you talk about the transfer of medical files and the lack of signatures. Has there been a look at the process to do a quick file review, something that can be done almost instantaneously, whether it's electronically or otherwise? They could go through the file and they could get that first response so they're not waiting 16 weeks only to be told they forgot to sign the paperwork.

You talked about the challenge of getting the medical files from the Canadian Armed Forces. What's being done to resolve that so those files are coming in very quickly?

My final point is, we're getting indications a lot of the files are being denied on the first go-around, yet when they're going to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, over 50% of them —that stat may not be 100% accurate; I'd have to pull it out—are being approved based on the adjudication or the first assessment of the claim. We need to fix that, I think, so we're not delaying people for so long just to have the wrong decision. I could understand if you got an 80% batting average of the claims being approved and everybody's happy, not that you're going to make everybody happy, but you have a large number of them appealing it and the decision is the policy was wrongly applied.

Those are a lot of questions. Do your best, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have a minute and a half.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

In a minute and a half, yes, yes, no and no.

On veteran hiring, not every veteran makes a great social worker. We have to be very careful, because sometimes bringing folks in triggers.... At the same time, as one of my kids going through basic training told me, “Hey, Dad, that sergeant major is old school”, and he may not make the best social worker. We have to be very cautious how we bring people in. Do they have the right personality?

When I go to my office in Trenton, Ontario, a third of the staff are veterans, a third of the staff are military spouses, and a third are career public servants who generally have a link to someone who has served. If I go to the atrium in Charlottetown and ask who has a family member who has been in the military, hands are almost unanimously up.

It's finding the right balance across the board. You need folks who are social workers, but at the same time, we do want to bring in more veterans, the right veterans, across the board.

Second, on the currently serving, the challenge of those currently serving is who has a full diagnosis. Sometimes what happens is someone gets hurt in morning PT or on an exercise, goes in, gets a chit, takes the old Tylenol or Motrin, and puts in a claim. We don't have a diagnosis yet. The injury is not fully developed or enduring, and yet we have a claim.

Twenty-five per cent of all the claims Michel is dealing with are from currently serving Canadian Armed Forces members, yet the problem frequently—and we are working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the surgeon general on this—is that often there isn't a diagnosis because the injury has not matured to that point yet.

We don't know about temporary category and permanent category until we know that the injury is enduring. That's one of the problems we're having. We're trying to deal with the Canadian Armed Forces on that by asking, “What's the gateway to put in a claim?” Often, folks don't even want to come forward with an injury because they might be pulled off a course.

In terms of sexual class actions, we are not treating those files any differently. In fact, we're putting additional attention....

Rick.

[Rick Christopher]

There have been a few class action lawsuits in the past. As part of the settlements.... If you think about LGBTQ2, Veterans Affairs had to adjudicate them first before they could get something out of the settlement. What we did in that case was we set up a dedicated team to do these ones quickly.

I would expect in other situations, depending on the way the settlement is structured, that we would do the same thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. I think there may have been a few more questions there, but maybe we can get to those in subsequent rounds.

MP Fillmore.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Walt, it's great to see you again. Thank you to you and your team for being here today. It's much appreciated.

As you know, Walt, I represent Halifax. Not only are we home to the east coast navy, 5th Canadian Division, the Mighty Maroon Machine, but across the harbour is 12 Wing Shearwater. I think we have in the Halifax area among the highest, if not the highest, concentration of veterans living anywhere in the country. This is a very important issue to me and veterans not just in Halifax but across the country.

First of all, I want to say thank you for your clarification with your water line analogy around the budget surplus at the end of the year. There have been some cynical efforts to frame that as a failure. Of course, any one of us would run our household accounts in the same way. To hear that those surplus monies, thin though they are, are turned back into the budget the following year is a good clarification.

I want to go after another cynical line of attack, which is that the backlogs are a sign of a failure. I believe that any successful organization or service is in demand. If there were no one lined up at the door, I would be more worried that perhaps VAC wasn't providing the services that are needed. I want to test that attempt to frame the backlog as a failure.

You've given us some metrics already around budget, hiring and all that, but you see where I'm going with this. I wonder if you could paint a picture, drawing on whatever programs or services you provide, whether they are the family resource centres, programs to transition to post-service life, or any of the suite, to help explain the popularity of the programs now. That could help explain why you're so much more busy and why you're so much more successful and that accounts for the increased demand.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Can I touch on the budget again?

I know my chief financial officer will start to quiver here. We get the money we require for veterans, and we're never sure how many veterans will present. The one variable we don't control is the number of veterans who ask for service. We start off each financial year based on the best evidence and the best rigour, projecting how many might be in long-term care, how many might need physiotherapy and so on. But we're not absolutely sure.

Last year in particular, with the pension for life, a new program, we were not sure how many folks would go for the lump sum versus the monthly. We could project it based on a best financial decision, but we just didn't know. The reality is, as we kicked off the last financial year, we were in the area of $4.1 billion to $4.2 billion. In the first quarter, we saw a lot more veterans coming forward, and a lot more veterans than projected going for the lump sum. Sara and her team had to put in a request for over $900 million additional funding in a year. Because it's a statutory obligation, there is no discretion. The government gave us that funding, and we are going through that at a rapid rate to get more decisions out the door.

Through the discussion about the new programming over the past few years, mindful that we have implemented, operationalized, over $10 billion of new programming.... If you recall, two years ago I was here with minister O'Regan. In 2018, we did 45 town halls coast to coast, five regional summits and a national summit. We went to social media to get out the message about all these extraordinary programs. People listened, and I was absolutely thrilled to see more people applying.

In 2015, for example, the career transition services we had at that time.... I still remember one of the first briefings I got from the chief financial officer saying we had to reduce the career transition services from $300,000 to $50,000. I asked why would we do that. He said that we only had 13 people apply. This year we're spending a lot of money on career transition services, because people are coming forward and using it to get career counselling and to find a civilian job where they want to settle.

I was absolutely thrilled with the education and training benefit. Here is the first time since World War II that we're implementing a program for folks who retired healthy, not a program only for medically releasing, because medically releasing today, even before this program, could access up to $78,500 for vocational rehabilitation. I have met ordinary seamen, retired, going through a Ph.D. in psychology on vocational rehab in Vancouver. Now they have the education and training benefit, and literally hundreds of veterans are coming forward.

We are also incentivizing people to stay in the military. That's why we set up the six-year period and the 12-year period.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you very much.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I was on a roll here.

All that is bringing more veterans through the door.