Veterans Affairs Committee on April 28th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm afraid that's time.

Next on my list is MP Doherty, but I understand that Todd's having some Internet issues, so we're going to Cathay.

MP Wagantall, you have five minutes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I would like to go back to Mr. McLellan.

When we're talking about commemoration, what I'm hearing is awesome. We need that commemoration to be there for the first purpose, which is to ensure that Canadians understand and appreciate the contributions and sacrifices made by those in uniform.

However, the second one is for all veterans and their family members to feel recognized. I haven't talked to RCMP members as much, but, for example, for the Afghan cohort, there is not yet a place in Canada where they can go that says we recognize what they did.

When I think of the opportunity for the museum for RCMP, I know from speaking with them that many of them faced atrocious circumstances overseas but also at home. For our veterans now, is there a way we should include that type of commemoration by VAC considering that they are part of our responsibility within Veterans Affairs?

[Steve McLellan]

It's an interesting question. I think that for solutions to determine the best way collectively as Canadians to honour these people—those who lost their lives as well as those who suffered—there needs to be a broader conversation.

We spend an awful lot of time, and rightfully so, on the First World War and Second World War, and I applaud that 100% and support it, but you've alerted us today to the Afghan women and men who have come back. They all left something on the sands of Afghanistan, if you will, as our Mounties do when they have served. There are some great tragedies, sadly, that have happened recently in the world of policing and that I think need to be represented.

As for how we do it exactly, I couldn't tell you, but I do know that the Mounties do a capable job, a very, very good job, of recognizing those who have lost their lives. They do an annual memorial service and so on, and on Depot their names are recognized on a cenotaph.

I think what we need to do is make sure that we, as Canadians and agencies, have that ability to place that name, if you will, and then, most importantly, that we tell the rest of Canada to come and see it and pay attention to it. Through standing in front of those cenotaphs in Arcola, Saskatchewan, or Yorkton, Saskatchewan, or on Depot, people say, “Okay, this is critical. Man, these people made a difference.”

Standing next to a Mountie who knew that person whose name is there, that matters, and it needs to matter. We need to continue to tell Canadians why it matters. Otherwise, we'll continue to make the mistakes we've made in the past. Let's not do it again in the future.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

Caroline, I would like to ask you a question. In reading through what you shared today, I note that you “are also developing a framework to guide the renewal of the Museum's galleries in response to demographic and societal changes in Canada”. You say, “This renewal will include the addition of a new dimension to the presentation of Canada's military history, to help explain our world in the 21st century.”

I find that very fascinating and would love that. Have you processed this? Are there things you can share with us today as to what that is going to entail?

[Caroline Dromaguet]

Thank you very much. It's my pleasure to talk to you about that a little bit.

Again, this is a project that is starting for us. As with anything, museology ages quickly as well, so we want to ensure that our museum, which is already 16 years old, if you can believe it, is in need of that renewal and that new approach. The way we told history in the late 1990s and early 2000s is different from how we tell it today.

Our main objective in the early days of this new framework, I would say, is to tell that story in a very meaningful and relevant way. I think many of the participants on this call have alluded to this earlier. It's to make history matter. If an event happened 100 years ago, how does it still impact the Canada we know today, so that all Canadians can connect to that history?

Probably one of my favourite examples is the story of Francis Pegahmagabow, who was the most decorated indigenous soldier in the First World War. We tell his story in our gallery, but in our new approach, what we would do is extend that story and say how Pegahmagabow's legacy and his activist work later on paved the way for some of the indigenous rights we know today, so that people can make that connection with history.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Perfect. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's exactly time. Thank you.

Up next we have MP Fillmore, please, for five minutes.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you to the witnesses for their time today.

One of you said that we are all connected to service in some way. It was very nice of Scot Davidson to share the story of his grandfather.

I'm going to hold this up. That's my grandfather. Maybe he knew Scot's grandfather. He was also at Vimy Ridge. He was injured there. That was him when he was signing up freshly to the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry a long time ago.

He was lucky. He came home and he started a family and I was able to take my seat in Parliament to help to participate in the democracy that he and others gave so much to defend. It's a great privilege to be here with all of you.

Ms. Dromaguet, two years in a row now we've missed the Battle of the Atlantic gala. You'll remember the famous photograph of the survivors of the Battle of the Atlantic. We have that photograph each year and the group gets smaller every year. I'm just so terrified of going back from 2019 to 2022 when we'll be able to do it again and how much that group will have shrunk by then.

To all of you, thank you for the work you do to commemorate and remember the sacrifices that have happened, that have been made by Canadians over many years.

I want to bring it to memorials and physical monuments. I represent Halifax as the navy town so I'm going to go to the navy by way of example. Here in Point Pleasant Park we have the anchor of HMCS Bonaventure, the Bonnie. It is a monument to people who lost their lives in service during peacetime.

There are a lot of monuments like it around the country whose ownership is not quite clear. They suffer from vandalism, from age. In the case of the Bonaventure monument, it's shoreline erosion because it's right on the edge of the ocean. We recently were able to coordinate among DND, VAC and a local survivor's group of the HMCS Kootenay disaster whose shipmates' names are on that monument, and we were able to bring that monument back in time for the 60th anniversary of the Kootenay disaster. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't straightforward.

Using that as an example, I'm wondering if any of you might have some advice for us on how we can care for these many smaller monuments throughout our communities across the country that commemorate those who have fallen.

I'll start with Mr. McLellan, given your domestic mandate, but if others would share any wisdom, I would be very grateful.

[Steve McLellan]

Thank you.

I can be very crisp on this.

We have many young people who are lamenting the fact they can't get out and socialize. We have many young women and men in this country 18 to 25 years old, 30 years old, who want to be cause supportive. If we give them a cause, it can be two days' work, five days' work; it could be a committee of young people who would support the necessary work. I think they would do all kinds of things, the physical work to take off the graffiti, to call on sponsors, to do the work that's necessary and to share the stories. I think there are lots of young Canadians we've not engaged in this, and we've asked our veterans to serve again by putting their cash and their time towards it.

Let's get our young people active. I bet they'd be more than enthusiastic.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

I think it's a brilliant idea. That brings labour to the equation.

There's also something about funding though. It was a rather expensive bit of shoreline restoration.

Are there any experiences perhaps from the other witnesses from overseas monuments how other countries or other veterans organizations are managing the funding stream that preserves these monuments going into the future?

[Don Cooper]

I can comment quickly on France, since I know it a little.

Generally, as in Canada, they often fall under the municipalities' purview, and the municipalities will look after them and have a sense of history that gets them to do that.

The youth aspect is really important. That's a great idea that Steve brought out.

In France and in Holland in particular, both countries, they get the youth out there to put wreaths and little Canadian flags on the graves, so they're involved, essentially in commemoration. That's an important aspect whether you're removing graffiti or something else. So stick with the idea.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you both for that. It's a great idea. I very much appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

There is about 10 seconds left, and I think Mr. Loveridge has his hand up.

I don't want that 10 seconds to go to waste if you want to contribute something, sir.

[David Loveridge]

I'll be quick.

We have a fair bit of experience with it. A lot of regimental units especially over in England and Europe put together memorials. It's easy to fund for the memorial; it's difficult to fund for the life-cycle maintenance of the memorial.

Part of that, I think, is the same in Canada. People want to build memorials, and those are all good things, but unfortunately it's who owns it afterwards, and who maintains it, and where the funds come from. Those are the kinds of questions we need to be asking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's excellent. Thank you very much.

Up next for two and half minutes is MP Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to come back to what Mr. Loveridge was just talking about.

Ms. Bailey, some time ago we were approached by a heritage association located in France. This association looks after the maintenance of a memorial site we're talking about, a site that is very important to the 22^e Regiment. It's the Canadian Mont-des-Cats memorial in northern France. Compared to Vimy, this site isn't as significant, as it's a small place.

Do you think Veterans Affairs Canada has a funding strategy to help these kinds of second-class memorial sites?

[Caitlin Bailey]

For now, yes. There's a program in Canada under the umbrella of the commemorative partnership program, which is designed to fund the renovation of second-class monuments, that is, small monuments, community monuments, and so on. This applies only to Canada. That's kind of the problem. There's no similar program for monuments elsewhere in Europe.

Mr. Loveridge said earlier that the question was complicated in terms of who owns it and who provides the funding. Is it up to France or Canada? The regiment may not even exist anymore or it may exist in a different form today. There's a lot of complexity in this, but I think it would be a good start to open up this program to monuments like the one you mentioned.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand the situation well. The associations that take care of these small monuments have a very hard time getting funding. These monuments are overseas, and they're not as large as Vimy.

Mr. Cooper, you alluded earlier to the fact that your organization is facing significant deficits because of the lack of traffic.

Is your organization in danger now?

[Don Cooper]

No, not at all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

It's time, but I'll allow for a quick answer.

[Don Cooper]

We're not in danger. We're very well served by the government assistance we've obtained in France and in Canada.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Next is MP Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I will come back to you again, Mr. Cooper.

I'm extremely relieved to hear that and I have no doubt that people would stand up for this very important monument.

I have a couple of questions. You spoke in your presentation about your ideas and thoughts around the expansion and what you want to do with the facility you have. I'm wondering what that looks like.

The other thing I thought you did a really good job on was talking about the opportunity and commitment to bear witness to this history and to have this as the monument that does that work. I'm wondering if you could talk about activities that you're doing to encourage youth to participate and learn. Are there any steps you're taking to do things with technology or anything to engage that younger population?

[Don Cooper]

Yes, I think that's basically been the theme of our museum from day one. I don't know if somebody else has done it now, but we certainly were the only museum that had a youth circuit going through it, for example. It was specifically designed for people four feet tall.

We've maintained that throughout. We've done it today with the Peter and Madeleine theme, and so forth. Yes, we've addressed that. We address it in terms of the interactions of the local population of French kids, who basically do the commemorations, plant the flags and do those kinds of things. From the beginning we've had very much a youth-focused orientation.

To the point about financing, essentially we have a vibrant museum that we're trying to make better all the time. When we look at a project, for example, like our expansion project, it's to accommodate the extra visitors we're getting and can anticipate. It's also a project that gets us closer to that goal of sustainability in financing. Basically, we're talking about expanding our boutiques so we can sell more goods and make more money. We are also going to expand into a coffee shop that will bring in additional revenues. The net result of all of this—and there's a business case to say this—is that we're going to spend this money, but we're going to get it back over time and make for a better visitor experience.

We're a little different from Vimy, which doesn't charge and can't charge. It's a different animal. We basically can and do operate our facility as much like a business as we can.