Evidence of meeting #29 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ptsd.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Laura A. MacKenzie  Owner and Master Trainer, K-9 Country Inn Working Service Dogs
Medric Cousineau  Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought
Danielle Forbes  Executive Director, National Service Dogs
Sheila O'Brien  Chair, Assistance Dogs International, North America

4:40 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

Thank you, MP Blaney.

In short, it would make headaches and problems go away. For the people who are involved with providing service dogs and dealing with people with PTSD, we suffer from.... First off, we don't trust anybody. A disproportionate number of us have anger issues that result in a thing called SIR, which is situationally inappropriate response. We have them in droves.

Knowing that we have the full backing of the legislation of this country at a federal level, so that whether I am in Saint John's, Newfoundland; Taloyoak, Nunavut; or Victoria, B.C., I know what the rules are and I know what my rights are, we can educate every Canadian as to exactly how that is. That uniformity is absolutely paramount.

To hear that a service dog...and the lack of understanding of how to deal with an individual with a serious disability in such a complex manner does not surprise me. The easy answer is no. Then you don't have to do anything except for the poor guy or gal who is at risk of becoming homeless over something that should be a fundamental right. That needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, no matter how much I have tried to push this peanut up the hill, it keeps rolling back down.

People like Dani know because they have been involved in this for decades. I really think you need to defer to people like ADI, who operate in 80-plus countries. This isn't a cottage industry that Ms. O'Brien thought up in her basement last weekend because she was bored. This goes back decades.

That's the thing. These standards exist. The problem is that we don't have them because of that group I told you about that literally took this thing off the rails. That is unconscionable.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you.

If I could come to Ms. O'Brien, I have a question.

I'm still trying to grapple with all of the testimony we've received. I'm just wondering if you could talk about your organization. Do you have training standards for dogs or do you have a code of conduct for trainers?

If you could explain to the committee a little bit about what the difference is, so that we better understand that, it would be extremely helpful.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Assistance Dogs International, North America

Sheila O'Brien

Are you talking about America's VetDogs or about ADI North America?

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

I'm talking about ADI.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Assistance Dogs International, North America

Sheila O'Brien

ADI has a book of standards that deal not only with dog training, but also deal with how we treat clients, how we do follow-up, how we figure out if a veteran is ready. That's part of the process. A lot of veterans want a dog but they're not necessarily ready for a dog. We have a mental health component to this.

Every program in ADI that becomes accredited must adhere to these standards. They're checked every five years.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Are they reviewed by a third party?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Answer just briefly, please.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Assistance Dogs International, North America

Sheila O'Brien

No, it's peer to peer, but they are reviewed by an ARC, an accreditation review committee.

ADI, as well as its sister organization, IGDF, which deals with guide dogs and people who have guide dogs, reviews every single program to make sure that they are maintaining those standards. It takes the onus off a VA or the airlines. It takes the onus off, because we know what we're doing. ADI was founded in 1987, or actually 1986. We've had standards since 1987. We evolve them. When PTSD came to the fore in the mid-2000s, we created standards for that. As things change, because it's a fluid industry and people's needs change, we change those standards to meet those needs.

The standards are reviewed. As I said previously, for the last two years, the international standards committee has been reviewing those standards for PTSD just to make sure we haven't forgotten anything or we have to change something.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you. I'm sorry, but we have to move on.

Up next, we have MP Wagantall, for five minutes, please.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for appearing today.

Ms. O'Brien, as I listen to you describe ADI, I'm very impressed. You also mentioned how you've added two mental health professionals to your team to handle what you're dealing with. Much of what you're referring to is very affirmable of what I find within the organization Audeamus, which has received multiple funding opportunities at two universities where they work with a psychiatrist as well as the researchers.

One of them mentioned that having worked for 25 years with Audeamus, screening by mental health professionals is really important to determine a veteran's readiness for a service dog and what the goals are going to be for the dog to meet, and they pair a veteran with that dog right at the very beginning to team train, a term you're probably aware of. They train with their puppy so it becomes second nature to care for each other and build that sense of trust that they need to go out in public.

I would like you to speak very briefly to how important that is, that sense of complete confidence and team within that relationship of the dog and the veteran, that would then spill over into the effectiveness of their training.

4:45 p.m.

Chair, Assistance Dogs International, North America

Sheila O'Brien

Yes, absolutely. As a matter of fact, in the United States, there's an act called the PAWS Act, which just passed the House. That is for therapy for veterans, doing the same thing as you just described your organization doing, where the veteran actually trains service dogs, overseen by professional trainers. It's a long process.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you. I apologize. You're answering my question really well. I just want to be able to ask a couple of other questions. The time goes way too quickly.

Medric, thank you so much for being here today.

I'd just like some clarification. With Wounded Warriors and the role that you're suggesting they have and they would play to a greater extent, what is it that Wounded Warriors actually does, and could you say it as concisely as possible?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

Wounded Warriors provides organization and oversight and ensures that member programs comply with standards.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Okay. As a quick question, where did they get that professional ability to determine whether programs are complying with the standards? How are they qualified to do that?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

Previously, before my injuries set me down, my email address was Dogfather@woundedwarriorscanada.ca. Because of my involvement in placing, funding and pairing, the one thing I have not done, can't do and will not do, to this day, is train a service dog. I don't have the skills. I was barely competent to be able to hang on to the end of the leash.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

How do you get the service dogs that you provided, the 200 dogs.... I don't remember. Was it 200?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

It was more than 200.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

At what point do you tie them to a veteran? How does that work for you?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

There are a variety of different models that are used. Some are the fully trained model, as per what National Service Dogs and ADI programs are doing.

There are some programs that are doing the owner-train participatory model. However, you must be aware, and it's highlighted in the prescriber guidelines, of the inherent danger of attempting to take a person with serious mental health issues, pair them with a dog of unknown provenance and get them to the finish line in the service dog world. If they fail, which there is a fairly large possibility of, you have literally reinforced failure for a veteran who is struggling. You can't have that.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

I agree with you entirely, because there's nothing more important than that they succeed. What is the best approach to enable that?

When you're securing these dogs, my concern as well is what this costs the veteran. I know with Audeamus there's no cost to the veteran, and they are not in a circumstance where failure is an option. If that dog doesn't work, it doesn't happen.

What does it cost?

4:50 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

Basically, ADI programs do all of their funding separate of the requirement of placing the dog. Being intaked into a program through Wounded Warriors Canada does not bring with it a financial obligation other than the care and upkeep of the service dog, and we highly recommend that handlers insure their service dogs with pet insurance so that they're not faced with potentially crippling medical expenses surrounding their dog. That's a huge issue and something that has to be addressed as part of this overall program. Service dogs are too valuable to let slip for the inability to pay a veterinarian's bill.

However, the reason my wife and I did what we did....

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

I just have a question.... I'm sorry.

4:50 p.m.

Co-Founder, Paws Fur Thought

Medric Cousineau

I could not afford that when I got her. The Royal Canadian Legion made her possible.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you so much.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Up next we have MP Casey for five minutes, please.