Evidence of meeting #21 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Ms. Hogan.
Now, for five minutes, let's go to Mr. Fraser Tolmie, please.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You have to forgive me. I'm a vet as well, so my passion for this report could maybe be expressed as disappointment—not in what you've produced, but in what you've revealed. I would echo the sentiments of a number of people around this table. We seem to have gotten report after report, and yours is the cherry on the top.
You're also the last one to be giving us this information. When we continually get that message that service is failing and then I, as a member for only one year, hear that it's been failing for seven years, it is very disappointing.
I go back to the comments you've made in your report, where you're concerned about the data. When I look at that, I'm concerned about the integrity of how we move forward. How do we translate what you're saying about how this is a failed service, and how do we fix the problem?
We can throw money at the situation, but if we don't know what the key mechanisms of that failure are, we're just going to keep throwing money at it. We're going to be told by the minister that it's going to be better, but we're going to continue to get reports like the one you've just given us.
I have a question for you. For you, in your report, what is the finish time—from start to finish—for when a file is closed?
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
First, I want to start by thanking you for your service. You mentioned that you were a veteran, so I think it's important to do that.
We followed along the lines that the department follows. We hold the department to what it says is its objective. For the department, a file is completed once it has all of the information. It ended at different dates, but we ended it normally where the department ended it, which was when a decision was rendered.
Like anyone, as you sit back and look at it in a common-sense way.... That is why we talked about what happens before the file is determined to be completed and the bit after they render that decision. A veteran thinks about that as the whole wait time, not just the wait time that the department measures. That's why we felt it was important to talk about the front end and the back end.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
I appreciate your validating that, because that was my thought when I was reading the PBO report from September 28, 2020. On page 1 it says, “In March 2017, the number of pending applications was 20,693, [but it] had reached 49,216 by March 31, 2020.”
That was prior to the pandemic. It almost doubled.
It continues, saying, “Of these, 22,138 were considered complete [and were] waiting for a decision from the department.”
Well, that vet is waiting to find out what that decision is, when they're going to get service and when they're going to be looked after. Would you agree with that?
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I would agree that if I send an application anywhere, as a vet would do here for benefits, the second I've handed it over the clock starts ticking for me. That's why I think it was important to talk about the before and after, as I mentioned.
The department does delineate its service standard calculation as a smaller area. Again, it is even more concerning when it can't meet that service standard when it's a smaller area.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
There were comments, earlier, around this seven-year period. It is my understanding, on good authority, that some of the offices that may have closed down were moved to Service Canada offices, and that offices were opened one year later, in 2016.
There was a promise made by this government to improve services. Could you expand a little on what you were saying about the broken promise?
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Excuse me, Mr. Tolmie. Your time is up. I'm so sorry. There will be a possibility to ask your question a bit later.
Right now, I'd like to invite Mr. Wilson Miao to participate virtually for five minutes.
Please go ahead, Mr. Miao.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Hogan, for all the work you and your team have done.
First, I would like to get into the backlog that has built up over the past seven years, and which has not met the target.
Do you know how much, exactly, the government funded VAC on this part, causing all these delays over the past seven years?
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Is the question about how much money they've contributed to deal with the backlog?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
It's not just the backlog. It's also not meeting the standard delivery time in the past seven years.
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
We did not look at the budget spent over the last seven years to see how much was directed toward the backlog versus the processing of applications in general. We weren't able to dissect the information that way. All I can refer to is the funds they've spent. You'd have to ask the department if they could break it down between backlog and regular processing.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you.
I would like to get into the CSDN system—the client service delivery network—being used.
Do you know how old the system is, right now, that deals with the processing of applications?
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
No, I'm sorry. I don't have that information. We didn't look at the IT system itself. We looked at the management of the files and the adjudication process.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
The delivery time could be caused by a system issue. That may cause inconvenience in serving veterans who have served us in the past.
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I can't comment on whether the IT system is causing delays. I think files are mismanaged, in some cases. We definitely saw that. An IT system should support you and facilitate case management, so I can't comment on whether it contributed directly or not. I'm sorry.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you very much.
Referring to page 23 of the report, one of the responses to recommendation 2.52 mentioned that the current system will be decommissioned in five years and moved to a new system called GCcase. Do you feel this will help prevent applications from being missed, or parts of the form not being filled in correctly?
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I can't comment on that. I did not audit GCcase. I don't know the way it's configured or how it will be used by the department, so I don't have any intelligence to offer on whether it will improve the process.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
That's no problem, Ms. Hogan.
I believe our colleague Mr. Desilets mentioned that. Money might not solve all the problems we have, but something is pretty broken in this system and causing the delays we're experiencing right now. With the recommendation brought forward, we did see a change and an improvement. Since the report was tabled—even though, right now, it's only a few months in—we have seen an improvement in some of the services provided to our veterans.
Am I correct?
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I really can't comment on how the IT system—the aging system—is contributing to this, but I would think that any system that can't give you complete and accurate information to help you understand where a file is slowing down in the process is not a system that's serving you well, if you're trying to manage files.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
I'm aware that over 50% of the staff who are helping with the application processes are temporary workers or under a term contract.
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
About 50% of the employees in the whole unit that treats all of the applications are temporary employees, yes.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
I'm not sure whether or not you can give me an answer, since you told me this might not be something you studied. Do you feel that the support of technology will integrate the application process in the future as well?
5:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
In general, I think you hope that your IT systems make you more effective and efficient at what you do. I think that's just a foundational place. I would hope IT would support everyone in that way.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Your time is over.
Thank you so much.
Ms. Hogan, we are going to move on to a fourth round of questions.
Mr. Caputo, the floor is yours for five minutes.