Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[Mark Meincke]

I have.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Was there any reference in the recorded conversations to something that happened in the unrecorded conversation with respect to a veteran who had availed himself of medical assistance in dying as a result of advice from the department?

Was that referenced in the conversation?

[Mark Meincke]

Yes. That was the core of his concern, because somehow—and I don't know the exact verbiage—in the original conversation where he was offered MAID, she said, “We've done it before. That's why I know I can do it for you. We did it before, and we are now supporting the surviving wife and two children.”

That's what he told me that conversation contained.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

My question is whether, in the recording that you listened to, that was part of the conversation.

[Mark Meincke]

He said that in the recording. Yes. That's what he was asking the VAC manager about. Of course, she said there was confidentiality and she couldn't discuss it.

She didn't deny it. She didn't say, “I don't know what the hell you're talking about”. She said, “I can't talk about that”, but she acknowledged that it had happened.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Was there also an acknowledgement in the recording of the apology that she had pressed this upon him and persisted after he said no twice?

[Mark Meincke]

Yes. He was clear about that.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

That was in the recording, so it was raised in a recorded conversation.

Did she acknowledge in that conversation that that, in fact, occurred?

[Mark Meincke]

In my mind, she did. Yes. She said it was inappropriate and it shouldn't have happened.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

In the recorded conversation, was there reference to, “It's better than blowing your brains out against a wall”?

[Mark Meincke]

No. That was in a private conversation that he had with me, when he extrapolated more on the interaction.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

In your evidence, you indicated that you are convinced that there is, in fact, a recording of that first conversation.

[Mark Meincke]

Yes. I would be shocked if it didn't exist.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Other than your gut and your experience, do you have any other basis for that firm belief?

[Mark Meincke]

Every phone call I've ever had with Veterans Affairs says, “This call will be recorded.”

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Is that including calls with a veterans service agent?

[Mark Meincke]

Yes, especially those.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

All right. Thank you.

Mr. Conrad, you raised the issue of sensitivity and cultural training, and indicated that perhaps Veterans Affairs is too stretched to be able to do it and to do it effectively.

What advice would you have for them?

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

The first thing I would advise is a focus on professional education and professional development of the caseworkers themselves.

I know that budgets are tight, but we do not spend enough on this government department. When you talk about the disposable income that the Government of Canada has and where things get invested, we are not a large interest group when it comes to garnering votes.

The department should put some money, preferably an increased amount of funding, into training its own. That cultural piece is absolutely vital, because you don't know—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Conrad. I'm sorry, but the time is up.

We're going to go to two short interventions, each two and a half minutes long.

I invite Mr. Desilets to take the floor.

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Thorne.

Mr. Thorne, we know that for women, the suicide rate is 1.9 times higher among female veterans than in the general population. We also know that for female veterans under the age of 25, the rate is 2.5 times than the general population.

Among men, the suicide rate among veterans is 1.4 times that of the general population.

On average, one suicide occurs every nine days.

My question may sound ridiculous, but would you agree that it's unacceptable and totally inappropriate to say the words “medical assistance in dying” to a veteran suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder?

[Oliver Thorne]

Yes, absolutely. I would agree. It feels silly to have to say that, but if that's the question, I absolutely agree. I question the ethics of it and even the legality of it.

I am not in any way well versed in MAID as a topic, but in preparation for today's testimony, I did some basic research. My understanding is that the only person who is qualified to discuss MAID is a primary care provider, meaning a physician, a nurse or a psychiatrist. It seems to me that a case manager would not fit that definition, so I don't understand how or why this would be discussed by a case manager with a veteran.

Even more troubling, from Mr. Meincke's testimony, is the idea that the case manager said now they are looking after the surviving spouse and child. It almost seems to incentivize the idea of medically assisted suicide, which is completely unthinkable.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If one of your employees had used those words or suggested medical assistance in dying, then added that the widow and children would receive support, would that individual still be employed by you?

[Oliver Thorne]

Absolutely not, and I should clarify that my employees never would. They are certainly not qualified to speak about that. They know that. Once again, it runs counter to the entire purpose of our organization, which is to prevent suicide.

Without question, if somebody were to engage in that kind of conversation, that would be complete grounds for dismissal.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Would it warrant dismissal from the government, in your opinion?