Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[Mark Meincke]

He was looking for help for a common service-related injury.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Do you feel that the service he was given was the right service or the wrong service?

[Mark Meincke]

He was given no service. He did his own research to find help. He was asking for support and he was asking if VAC had any other help that they could suggest.

Now that I have the opportunity.... He asked for supports for his family, because of the phone call, and he was denied.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Would you say that a boundary was crossed? Would you say that a mandate that Veterans Affairs has or should have was crossed?

[Mark Meincke]

Unless the mandate is budget cuts through getting rid of us, yes, a line was crossed.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay.

On a quick note, you mentioned PPCLI. My cousin served in Croatia in your unit, and afterwards you and I could maybe take a moment to discuss that. We might know some people in common.

Colonel Conrad, you opened up your comments earlier on and said that maybe some well-intended comments had gone astray. Would you stick to that after hearing some of the comments that have been shared and understanding what should be a mandate for Veterans Affairs?

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

Absolutely not. My eyes have been really opened with what other folks have brought forward this morning. I don't stand by those comments, knowing what I know now.

I'll tell you one thing about MAID. I lost my dad on May 25 through medically assisted death, after a long fight with cancer. The very first person who opens their mouth to ask for it or mention it is the patient, under no duress from a medical practitioner. Unless I'm misunderstanding the legislation, my dad had to bring it up, not the practitioner.

I just want to be clear there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

Let me invite Mr. Luc Desilets, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Thorne, I would like you to explain to me how people in an organization like yours come to deal appropriately with suicidal ideation among some veterans and medical assistance in dying? How do you go about it? What kind of information and training do you provide to your employees on the subject?

[Oliver Thorne]

On the topic of suicidality, our staff undergo first aid mental health training in order to be able to respond to suicide or suicidal ideation. Specifically on our programs, all of our facilitators are registered mental health professionals—either psychologists or registered clinical counsellors—and the peer supporters, the paraprofessionals I mentioned earlier, the veterans who work alongside our psychologists, undergo specialized training with our organization as well.

In terms of how we address suicide, we address it largely through the reduction of symptoms and distress that would give somebody suicidal ideation. Our program is designed to address post-traumatic stress, depression and anxiety, but also isolation.

We see very often that for those who are struggling with suicidal ideation, they are perhaps suffering with depression or post-traumatic stress, but what we also see very often is moral injury: either witnessing or engaging in something in the line of service that runs core to who they believe they are and their values as a person. This injury is particularly nefarious, because it produces an enormous amount of shame in the individual who suffers from this. Shame leads to isolation, and isolation leads to a lack of peer support, and all of this leads down the line towards suicide.

Our intervention is designed to bring people together in a group, to get them comfortable with one another and to teach them skills for understanding why these experiences are affecting them the way they do. If we create a safe environment, these individuals can share with one another some of these difficult moments in these stories. They can reduce that shame, reduce the isolation and learn skills to cope. They go out into the world after the program with a peer support network of those individuals they took the program with.

That is our approach to reducing suicidality.

In terms of how our coordinators or our staff would respond to medical assistance in dying, they have been instructed not to discuss it with anybody who brings it up. If they are asked, they must refer the person to a physician or a primary health provider.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne.

I'm sorry, Ms. Blaney. I forgot to invite Mr. Churence Rogers for his five minutes. After that, I will go back to you.

Mr. Rogers, you have the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I, too, would like to welcome our guests today. I thank you for your service as well. It's incredibly important.

We've heard a lot of testimony, and there are a lot of questions where we could go in different directions.

Mr. Thorne, first of all, you mentioned in your testimony PTSD and suicides and what happens in suicide prevention, of course, and you mentioned the fact that vets are reluctant to reach out for help.

This left me wondering: Is there a process in place for veterans when they finish their military service and they go off to live a civilian life? Is there some kind of process whereby vets are monitored? Is there some form of follow-up by VAC with these people who have finished their service as members of the military? Are you aware of any of that?

[Oliver Thorne]

I think that is in the process of being built out and has been over the course of the past few years. Specifically, this would be the transition group within the Department of National Defence. Previously, it was known as the JPSUs, the joint personnel support units.

Those have all been rebranded or relaunched as transition centres, if you will, across Canada, the idea being that preparation for transition will become a standardized part of military training throughout a military individual's career, but that as they approach their release from the military, that training within the transition group will ramp up, with the hope of better preparing them for the transition from military to civilian life.

This work has been ongoing for a number of years. We are hopeful that this will help the transition process, because what we often see is folks who slip through the cracks. Again, because of that reluctance to reach out, they sit there and they continue to deteriorate. Their symptoms deteriorate until they reach a point of crisis, and that's what we hope to avoid.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you for that, Mr. Thorne. It's good to hear that this kind of transition process is being implemented.

Mr. Meincke, you mentioned that it was a long time before you reached out. I'll ask the same question but from your perspective. Was there any follow-up with you before you reached out? Was there any follow-up from Veterans Affairs Canada?

[Mark Meincke]

No, I'm an old-timer. I got out in 1995, and when I got out in 1995, it was “don't let the screen door hit you on the butt on the way out”. There was absolutely nothing at the time, and there was nothing subsequently, before 2017, when I first entered the VAC system. During that entire period of 23 years, there was never an outreach call of any sort, no.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Should there have been?

[Mark Meincke]

Oh yes. It's like a cancer. The longer you leave it, the harder it is to treat.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Colonel Conrad, what steps should VAC take to address the recent incident, from your perspective, to ensure that this kind of thing never happens again?

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

Well, I'm not sure. From what I've heard today and what I know about Veterans Affairs, I'm not sure that they're harnessed to adequately deal with it. The apologies I've seen in the press....

I agree with the earlier comment that, if this was my department, I would be making, at the very least, a phone call. This is a horrific breach of trust, because suicide is what we all work against in terms of recovering from PTSD. You can be whole again, so this is fundamentally concerning. I'm not sure they can get there from here on their own.

It's my honest belief that it's too late. From what I understood, the apology in the press was four or five days in the making. During that time, deputies and ministers would be scrambling to make sure that they had their best face forward, that they had all the facts, and if that's all you're doing, well, I'm sorry but that dog won't hunt. I'm not sure that Veterans Affairs on their own can rectify this.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'm out of time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, you're out of time. Thank you so much.

I'd like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I would like to take this opportunity to come back to Colonel Conrad.

I'll ask you one question. Then, if we have time left, I'll ask you another one about the civilian provider.

I want to go back to the conversation I had earlier with Mr. Meincke about sanctuary trauma. I really appreciate some of the things you've shared today, and I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit about the impact of sanctuary trauma. You indicated earlier that there needs to be more fulsome training, which I hear is something that you're speaking about very clearly. You also talked about the fact that there might need to be help from outside of VAC.

Please talk about sanctuary trauma and what kinds of supports you think would be imperative to make sure things like this don't happen again. We obviously hear it's a lot broader than just this incident.

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

I'll try to be brief. Thank you for the question.

My experience with getting help.... I wandered in the woods for about four years of my life where I did not work. PTSD grasps so seamlessly with your own sense of self, it's like the devil touching you on the sleeve. It's almost impossible to see it in yourself. In my case, I wanted to deny it. I didn't want to admit that I was wounded. I wanted to go on. I had a friend, not dissimilar to Mr. Meincke, who was really instrumental in bringing me in from no-man's land.

When I started to reach out, the process was to deny: “We won't accept your claim” or “We need more of this.” I was at the point where my mind was what it was, and my back was out. I had a major heart attack and was on disability from this job. You have trouble feeding your family, and to hear the approach on the phone that “Well, you're going to have to do this” or “We need more of that”.... I was at the point where I was selling my medals on eBay to try to make mortgage payments on my farm.

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of who we are. I wanted to be good again. I didn't know what was wrong with me. I knew I couldn't walk straight. I knew the fundamental misunderstanding with the person on the phone. I'm not a quitter. I'm even having trouble putting it into words for you today.

To answer your question, for me, attitude and understanding are such important qualities in an institution, in a thinking institution. The name of this ministry is Veterans Affairs Canada. How can you not know us so well? How can you not be absolute experts on Canadian veterans, when that is your single point of focus in taking care of the men and women who have served this country?

I come back to education. It starts at the top. I have long said that at the top end of this department they don't seem to get that they are not an insurance company. They don't seem to get that they're in the business of taking care of human beings who would have given their last breaths to protect you, and many of them have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Conrad, thank you so much. Time is up.

I'd like to ask Mr. Blake Richards to speak for five minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Here's what we know. There was a veteran who came to Veterans Affairs seeking help for injuries and trauma that he was dealing with as a result of his service to our country. Instead of being offered support or resources to help deal with the issues he was facing, it was suggested that he maybe consider medical assistance in dying, and it was pushed on him, despite his insistence that he wasn't interested. It's caused him to spiral downward, from what we've heard from you, Mr. Meincke.

Despite what we were originally told, which was that this was an isolated incident, it turns out that there's at least one other veteran this has occurred with, and that veteran is no longer with us. Now his family is being supported. It leaves one to wonder how many others there might be and how many other deaths might have resulted from this.

We were told that the identity of this veteran wasn't known to the officials, yet we've heard from you, Mr. Meincke, that a letter was sent to the individual, so clearly his identity was known and is known to the Veterans Affairs officials.

There are a lot of contradictions here, including the one that you shared about recordings. I agree with you. I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't have been a recording of that phone call. I think just about everything we do with an organization like Veterans Affairs or other large organizations is recorded. We all know that. You mentioned yourself that on every phone call with them, you always get an indication that the phone call will be recorded. It is hard to imagine this phone call wasn't recorded. Given all the other contradictions we've seen, I find it hard to believe that it doesn't exist.

I have some questions I'd like to ask, but there's a motion I'd like to move. I'm going to move it. I'm firmly of the belief that this should be one that we will all support quickly and easily. We can pass it and move on, and carry on with hearing more of our witness testimony today.

Given all of these contradictions, I really think we need to hear again from the minister, the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister, who were here with us last Thursday. We have to clear up the contradictions here.

I'm going to move that we ask the minister, deputy minister Paul Ledwell and assistant deputy minister Steven Harris back to the committee to hear on this issue for two hours, and that that happen within the next month, before November 24.