Evidence of meeting #23 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meincke.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colonel  Retired) John D. Conrad (As an Individual
Mark Meincke  Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
Carolyn Hughes  Acting Director, Veterans Services, National Headquarters, The Royal Canadian Legion
Oliver Thorne  Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Thorne is next.

11:55 a.m.

Executive Director, Veterans Transition Network

Oliver Thorne

Yes, absolutely, I would echo Ms. Hughes' thoughts. I really believe that this must be given through informed consent by the veteran as to whether or not they would like to have a call recorded.

I can understand the desire to record calls for quality assurance or for addressing issues like this, but from the perspective of the service provider, veterans are often seeking our services because they are seeking confidentiality and privacy. They may be worried about the perception of seeking services, about the impact on their career, so I think that first and foremost we have to lead with informed consent on the part of the veteran, because that will make the services the most accessible that they can be.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

We'll now go to our second round of questions.

I invite MP Terry Dowdall, for five minutes, please.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses here, as well, especially those who have served. Thank you for your service.

When I left the meeting here last week, I didn't feel very good about it, quite frankly. I was upset. Over the weekend, on Friday—I have to say ahead of time—the veteran we are talking about reached out to my office. I've had lengthy discussions, like you, Mr. Meincke. There are transcripts and messages that we went over since the weekend. I just want to make sure, before we begin.... The individual we're talking about is non-partisan. He has no link to any party, first of all. The other thing I want to say is.... Quite frankly, his concern, as you said so well, is about other veterans who perhaps had the same experience, and how that could affect them. Before we even begin, I wanted to say that.

I was quite disappointed with the minister. I was quite disappointed with the deputy minister for the fact that if that was my brother, my sister, my father, a friend or anybody, what happened.... I've seen the documentation. I can't share it, either, at this particular moment in time. I haven't even shared it with my colleagues, quite frankly, to honour this gentleman. The apology, as far as I'm concerned.... I would think an individual at the top should have called this person. Obviously, they suffered from post-traumatic stress, and to leave them hanging after the fact is unacceptable. This came out in August.

Do you think that the apology, and how that went forward, was meaningful?

11:55 a.m.

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

I didn't hear the apology. It was a week later, which he did comment on. He said, “It's been a week. It's kind of an emergency.” He was told, “Well, I got to you when I could.”

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

The message was that they didn't know who the individual was, but they sent a letter, so they knew who it was.

In my mind, I don't care who you are, but I think a phone call asking, “How are you doing? How are things going?” would be what someone should have done in the leadership role.

11:55 a.m.

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

Given the gravity of what it did.... I've had phone calls from around the world over this. People ask me, “Is this true?” People who know me and trust me ask, “Is this true? Did this actually happen?” Yes, it's true. It actually happened.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

The individual also wanted to stress that, as you said earlier.... You had great comments about them not seeing that they have post-traumatic stress. They've given their life for our country, and then people kind of shun them.

This speaks to a bigger issue. This is what he said: “How many other people have we done this to?” Are we keeping numbers? I guess this is for Oliver Thorne. Are the numbers of individuals...? Are they going down? Do you track it for CAF? I'd like to see that. I don't know if this committee sees that, because we have to move forward. I don't think we are, quite frankly.

11:55 a.m.

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

I'm tremendously happy that he reached out to you. I gave him your number. I didn't know if he would or not. He's gone dark on me. I haven't had correspondence in over a week.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

The issues, too, are far greater. He is one, so how many issues...? I think it's outside of the MAID question, and this is what I want to say. This speaks volumes to the way they are perceived as individuals after giving up their career. Coming from national defence before, we could not get people to join.

My question is for the two individuals who have served us. Would you recommend to your children, your nephews, or friends to actually join the Canadian Armed Forces?

11:55 a.m.

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

First, there are three who served who are here as witnesses.

Noon

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Yes.

What would you suggest?

Noon

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

The answer is yes, but with eyes open. As a matter of fact, my oldest boy is all excited, because next week I'm taking him, at the age of 16, to join the reserves, where at least he has an easy out. However, my boy's eyes are fully open, and he doesn't have tons of childhood trauma, so I think he'll fare well.

However, it has to be with eyes open, because, although there is a system in place to help, it's a son of a gun to access it. The benefits are there, but actually receiving them is a whole other thing.

Noon

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

What about the other two individuals?

Noon

Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad

My answer would be the exact same. Absolutely, yes, this is a great country, and this entire planet needs more Canadian soldiers and Canadian servicemen. I believe that fundamentally. I've seen it in the different places I've served, from Kandahar to Cambodia.

However, it would be with eyes wide open. It was very well said by my colleague.

Noon

Conservative

Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

In 15 seconds, I can't get too much out there.

I want to say that I think we all need to do a lot more to make sure that's not the view that these veterans have, because it bothered me all weekend, quite frankly.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Now I'd like to invite MP Sean Casey for five minutes or less.

Noon

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Meincke, I want to get a little further into your testimony. It is absolutely jarring. I want to make sure that I understand it.

The recordings that you have were recordings that were made by the veteran of the calls subsequent to the call in which he was, in an unprompted fashion, directed toward MAID. That conversation you have no recording of, but you have conversations of apologies from officials afterward. Is that it?

Noon

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

That's correct.

Noon

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

On these recordings that you have, are you aware of whether the other person or people on the call, other than the veteran, were made aware that the call was being recorded?

Noon

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

I do not know.

Noon

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Do you know whether Veterans Affairs is aware of the existence of these recordings?

Noon

Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual

Mark Meincke

Is Veterans Affairs aware of these ones? I do not know.

It depends.... He would have told them, and it would be in the notes, so the answer to that question is that it will almost certainly be in the notes.

Noon

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Have you listened to the recordings?