Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So there's nothing more to say about that.

Mr. Minister, rarely have I heard you use words like “disgusting”, “unacceptable” and “deeply troubling”. I trust you. I'm certain that you are an honest man, and I believe that what you're saying is true.

Suppose this employee is due to retire soon. Would he be entitled to all the benefits accrued during his employment with your department?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much. I'll turn it over to the assistant deputy minister.

[Steven Harris]

What I can tell you is that the process will be consistent with the collective agreement and will honour all remedies to which employees are entitled during an investigation under that agreement. They will be in place and will be guided by—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand.

So, if it was an indictable offence under the Criminal Code and the RCMP charged him with an indictable offence, his retirement wouldn't be affected. Is that what you're telling me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 10 seconds, please.

[Steven Harris]

I can't make any assumptions about the outcome of—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So can you just tell me—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you again, Chair.

I would just come back to the training. I understand, based on what we were sent earlier today about the self-directed learning, that this is mandatory training. I see it here, around suicide awareness and so on.

They are all self-directed. How does the accountability work for this? I see that on the form it says to fill out this tracking form. How is that assessed? I'm a little concerned here. That's my first question: Is there a way to track how that's taken care of?

The second question I have is about the particular staff member who was offering MAID as if it was an option, which is still so concerning to me because we all know that within the legislation in this country, that doesn't even make any sense. Has that member taken this training?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Rachel.

As you're aware, and as I said before, 90% of the staff have taken the training. They had questions and answers. I'll let the deputy minister expand on that because they are conducting that fully. We have to make sure that all employees at Veterans Affairs Canada fully understand that this is totally inappropriate.

For the tracking, I would have to turn to the deputy.

[Paul Ledwell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would indicate that for the 10% who have not taken the training, it could be because they're on leave. Some are on maternity leave. It's not that they are not taking or are refusing to take the training, but that they have not been in the office to be able to do it.

It is mandatory to take this training and to attest to that. As the minister said early on, as a consequence of this, we are also going to step up our training around sanctuary trauma.

In terms of the individual circumstance, I can't speak to that. I can't attest to that. I don't know if my colleague has any information or some comment about that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Are you referring to Mr. Harris?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes, I am.

[Steven Harris]

I don't have any more information about the individual employee's completion.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay.

The training is self-directed and they sort of just sign in. There isn't really a fulsome understanding of whether they took the training and how they took that training in. That, I think, is another question.

I see my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Exactly. Thank you so much, Ms. Blaney. I'm so sorry.

Now let's go to Mr. Fraser Tolmie on the web for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The ombudsman's report, the Auditor General's report, the PBO's report and the committee report are all saying there's a failure to deliver service, Minister.

Minister, your opening statements from the last time you were here and this time seem to conflict with what's actually happening within the department. You first stated that it was one employee and one incident, and then it changed to one employee and two incidents. Now we're at one employee and five incidents.

In light of today's news, are you sure that it is only one employee who is offering MAID?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much for your question.

The reason why you have an investigation is to make sure that you get to the bottom of the situation. I indicated quite clearly when I was at the committee last time that I asked the deputy to conduct an investigation into this situation. That was to find out the details. When you have an investigation, you find out exactly what took place.

Yes, we found two other situations, and I clearly stated that to you when I spoke. However, I'm surprised you would say there is no delivery from the department. This department has worked so hard on the backlog—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You asked me about delivery, and I want to answer.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes. I've given you four statements from different independent reports. They are the ombudsman's report, the Auditor General's report, the PBO's report and our own committee report, saying that we're failing to deliver service. Now we're analyzing how this service is being delivered, and what we're actually doing is offering MAID.

Is it in Veterans Affairs' mandate to help members win court cases in MAID, instead of helping vets deal with PTSD and become integrated into Canadian society?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

As you indicated.... We have no record of a court case, and I indicated that clearly before.

However, you also indicated that the ombudsperson.... Yes, we certainly appreciate any information from the ombudsperson, who also indicated that we have worked very hard and have reduced the backlog from 23,000 down to 9,300. That is not good enough, but as I clearly indicated, by next spring or summer, we will have it to the national standard. That's what we have to do.

I indicated when I became minister that this was the number one priority, and by next spring or summer, we will reach that threshold. It's important that we make sure that veterans receive the benefits they should receive in a timely manner.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, through you, does that mean that the investigation the minister told this committee about the last time he was here has failed or that it needs to be reopened or expanded in its scope, based on yesterday's news?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Failed? I don't understand. Reopened...I mean, it's not closed. How would you reopen something that's not closed? It's ongoing—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Minister, your investigation—