House of Commons Hansard #4 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was economic.

Topics

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Madam Speaker, on behalf of all my colleagues, I would like to commend the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup for his excellent speech on regional economic development.

Having worked for the Quebec government in the area of regional economic development for 25 years myself, I fully agree with him on three points. The first point he made concerning regional development, or non-development rather, was the laisser-faire policy we have in this country at this time.

The second point that I endorse at once is that Quebec should get this jurisdiction back along with all the related tax considerations as soon as possible, so that there can a be a semblance of economic planning in that new country to be.

The third point I obviously endorse and the last one he made is that the people of Quebec should make as soon as possible the only rational choice open to them in terms of comprehensive and global development, and that is the road of sovereignty, national sovereignty for Quebec as soon as possible.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

For the hon. member's information, usually, as a rule, questions and comments must deal with what the previous speaker has said, not another speaker who had the floor before the hon. member. Any other question or comment?

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC

Madam Speaker, as this is the first time I rise in this House, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the people of Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans for electing me on October 25, last year, to represent them in this place.

My question or comment for my hon. colleague from Vancouver Quadra is this: I want to tell him that I really appreciated his speech and that I would have liked him to stress the importance of rail transportation for regional development. My hon. colleague from Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, who is very devoted to regionalism, strongly emphasized the fact that the regions were getting poorer and poorer and I believe that his province and region are among those which owe their development to a railway stretching A mari usque ad mare, d'un océan à l'autre , from coast to coast.

In their speeches, the Prime Minister and the hon. Minister for External Affairs have indicated how committed they are to this country. It reminded me of a slogan I heard as a fourteen year old during the Centennial campaign in 1967, which said: "Canada Stand Together, Understand Together". At any rate, I hope that the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra will ensure that rail transportation is maintained in the years to come.

I also support the comment the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup made about the need for a high-speed train for the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Speller Liberal Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am somewhat surprised. We have now had two members of the Bloc up asking questions of my colleague and he has not yet been able to respond to them. I am wondering what rule you have been using to cut off the response to my colleague?

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I thank the hon. member. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra was not on his feet. I assumed he did not wish to make a comment and therefore I went on to debate.

Would the hon. member like to make a comment? We have five minutes left. You must rise so I can recognize you.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his remarks. I am very much aware of the flexibility of the Canadian federal system as I myself am a regionalist. I know we can make some important changes to our Canadian system.

I would not want to speculate on the initiatives being developed by our hon. colleague, but I know that there will be good opportunities for the growth of regionalism in Canada in the near future.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Madam Speaker, I wish to join the previous members in congratulating you and the hon. member for Welland-St. Catharines-Thorold for his election to Speaker of the House.

In the words of the Hon. J. J. Greene, a former Liberal minister from my home town of Arnprior, Ontario: "I am sure that you will fill with distinction the office that has in the past been occupied by so many distinguished men and women".

I also congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. I wish both of them success in their careers in public service and here in the House.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the constituents of Calgary Centre for electing me as their member and representative of this 35th Parliament. It is truly an honour and a privilege to represent such a diverse group of people from a city that is so rich in western character and traditions.

My constituents come from all walks of life and the majority are highly motivated and educated people who no longer believe in the concept of executive federalism. They are tired of secret policy formulations and abusive use of government patronage,

perks and pensions at a time when they are asked to pay more and more in taxes.

My constituents want fiscal and social reforms and more direct control over politicians and they want them sooner than later. As their member of Parliament I plan to listen to them and more importantly be held accountable to them during the time I am here, not just at election time.

We have changed the faces of over 200 members in this House but if we only change the faces and not the system we will have accomplished nothing.

Superficial or cosmetic attempts to correct the injustices in fiscal and political accountability will no longer be tolerated by voters of this great country.

Time is of the essence in this Parliament. The time has come to satisfy the majority interests in this country and not just that of the special interest groups and elite Canadians. Today I will be analysing the government's legislative program from the perspective of fiscal responsibility and tax reform.

As the national debt continues to increase, we know it threatens the future economic health of our nation.

Continued deficit spending will force future generations of Canadians, our children and grandchildren, to accept responsibility for this debt. It is a handicap that will be reflected in our ability to compete globally and to grow and prosper domestically. The average Canadian taxpayer cannot be asked to pay more in taxes in any form.

In the speech from the throne there is no mention of deficit or debt or how the GST will be replaced. This is a concern. The Prime Minister has stated that the current system of taxation does not work.

The need for tax reform is obvious. First, it is too complicated. Most cannot fill out their own forms. They need to hire professional assistance. Second, it is inequitable. The progressive system with its many tax loopholes favours the rich. Third, there is no real effective mechanism to prevent open ended spending on ineffective and unnecessary programs. Fourth, our high rates of taxation and the GST have contributed greatly to the underground economy of $60 billion to $80 billion which is not taxed. We must introduce measures to eliminate the need for taxpayers to avoid paying taxes. As witnessed yesterday by the Auditor General's report there is over $900 million in GST unremitted. Fifth, it is unfair to finance current programs at the expense of future generations who have no vote in the political process.

Our children and grandchildren may never forgive us if we do not acknowledge that it is their money that we are spending and committing.

As members know, our chartered banks are reluctant to lend money these days because of the economic uncertainty. Why not give some direction and leadership and commit this 35th Parliament to solutions which send the right signals to the investment community, the lenders and the taxpayers? Increased taxation and a reliance on infrastructure spending alone will not significantly reduce the deficit or encourage an economic recovery.

The federal government could demonstrate fiscal responsibility and restraint however by considering the following alternative to the taxation system which would help us solve some of our problems. It is essential to broaden the tax base in order to lower the average rate of taxation with a new system that treats all individuals and corporations equally. This will surely appeal to the common sense of all Canadians.

I would propose a simple, flat tax on income or, as my leader likes to call it, a "proportional tax" with a generous, fully indexed exemption for lower income wage earners.

Mr. Speaker, you may have already heard of this idea under the name of the single tax as it was called by the hon. member for Broadview-Greenwood. His book, entitled simply The Single Tax , gives a lucid and compelling exposition of how this approach could be applied to Canada. Regrettably the proposal has found no favour in his own party whose leaders unfortunately are in love with the complex and manipulative character of the old system. I challenge and encourage them to reconsider.

In conclusion, we should commit ourselves to balancing the budget, target funding to the truly needy and limit expenditures to $153 billion in the 1994-95 fiscal year. These changes would have tremendous advantages. First, they would stimulate higher tax revenue for the government. Second, they would remove the incentives for the underground economy. Third, they would stimulate more economic growth and create jobs which after all is the number one priority of the Prime Minister's red book.

I would like to close by changing somewhat the slogan of the late Senator Stan Waters from "Keep on marching" to "Let us start marching".

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Nunatsiaq Northwest Territories

Liberal

Jack Iyerak Anawak LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member just talked about having constituents from all walks of life and how changing just the faces will not work if we just change the faces and not the intent of the government.

The hon. member is well aware, because he looks this way, of the very different faces that are on the government side, whether it is my colleague or others. I think that members should be aware that changing the faces or the colours of the faces has

very much changed the dynamics of how the government will be operating in the years to come.

The member said: "all walks of life". I just want to ask the member whether he has any groups of aboriginal people in his riding and where his party stands on the issue of the inherent right of self-government because in the throne speech mention was made of the recognition of the inherent right of self-government for aboriginal people.

I just want to ask the hon. member this. I realize he may not be the person dealing with aboriginal issues but he may well know the policy of his own party.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, in response to the hon. member and going back to only changing the faces and not the system, I perhaps may not have explained myself very well. If all we do is change the faces and not the way we do business in this House, not the way we look at how we spend money, not the way we look at how we evaluate programs and not the way we decide what is in the best interests of Canadians then we will have accomplished nothing. Whether we have aboriginals, Hungarians or different colours, it does not matter. We must have systemic change in this House. That is what is important.

Canadian voters wanted change and expressed it by sending so many new people to this House. They have changed the people so it just follows logically that we have to change the system.

In response to the second part of his question with respect to aboriginal rights, my party and I are very much in favour of working with aboriginals towards self-government and for the fulfilment of their dreams.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member noting that the government must balance the budget. However, the approach taken will be the critical factor. We are confident that the hon. member and his party, the Reform Party, will agree that spending must not be reduced at the expense of the least fortunate. A parliamentary committee should be convened to review each separate budgetary expenditure.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would concur with the hon. member that balancing the budget is a priority. I would also concur that a review of the spending estimates, program by program and then line by line, is very important and one that would provide great benefit to this House.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Reform

Herb Grubel Reform Capilano—Howe Sound, BC

Mr. Speaker, before I was elected to this House I was a professor of economics. How I wished I could use the threat of failing grades to get the attention of this audience. Unfortunately I have to use other means.

My position here has cost me dearly. Upon learning about my election my former colleague and friend, Milton Friedman, noted that now I had become an unreliable economist. You can imagine my dismay when the hon. member for LaSalle-Émard the other day said to me in front a large audience that I could expect to be at the bottom of the totem pole as a member of the House who is also an economist.

Before I present my comments on the throne speech, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to tell you and the hon. members of this House where I come from in a number of senses.

I arrived in North America in 1956 at the age of 22 with only a light suitcase full of clothing and the heavy baggage of a really thick German accent.

Through hard work, lots of luck and a long odyssey of academic positions in the United States, in 1971 I saw the light and accepted a position as professor of economics at Simon Fraser University, which, as you may know, was identified by Maclean's magazine as the best Canadian university in its class last year.

I love my adopted country of Canada. Its system of democracy, liberty and opportunity has made it possible for me to be in this distinguished Chamber today. Its economic system has produced the highest standard of living for the largest proportion of the population of a country in the history of mankind. I have dedicated myself to the defence of this system against the onslaught of excessive government in the lives of Canadians and against the massive deficits that threaten its very existence.

There is no perfect economic and social system in this world. But I think that the efforts to perfect ours have gone too far. Some of our country's most serious economic and social problems have been caused by well-intentioned but flawed government programs. That is why I believe that the solution to these problems is less, not more, government.

Geographically I come from the riding of Capilano-Howe Sound which is scenically one of the most spectacularly beautiful ridings in all of Canada. It consists of the Vancouver bedroom communities of West Vancouver and North Vancouver which enjoy one of the highest per capita incomes in all of Canada. The riding also includes the industrial town and port of Squamish, the farming community of Pemberton and last but not least the resort community of Whistler which has been for some years identified as the best ski area in North America. In a recent survey it was called the best in the entire world. I am proud and deeply honoured to be able to represent the residents of Capilano-Howe Sound in this House.

The throne speech and many other pronouncements by the government have promised the restructuring of Canada's social programs as one of its major legislated programs for this Parliament. In the few minutes remaining to me here I would like to share with members of the House some insights I have gained from a study of these programs.

Before I do, I want to get out of the way one other fundamental and very important matter. From long experience I know that the discussion of social programs often leaves antagonists questioning each other's motives. Please, in our deliberations in this House let us not do so. Neither the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre nor the hon. member for Burnaby-Kingsway have a monopoly on compassion. It is because of my strong concerns about the ability of the government to deliver support to those in need in the future that I make the following remarks.

The issue for me and Reform is not whether the unfortunate in our society should be cared for but how best to care for them today and tomorrow. Canada's social programs are beset by three major problems.

First, too much of the spending benefits families with high incomes. For example, families with incomes of over $100,000 a year in 1992 received $2.5 billion and $1.5 billion in UIC and OAS benefits respectively. Such transfers clearly are not consistent with the objective of providing a security net for Canadians beset by financial calamity. They are a subsidy to higher income earners that the country can no longer afford. They are the unwanted consequence of the noble desire to provide benefits universally without a means test.

Second, the current system has created incentives to which rational Canadians are responding in ways that greatly dismay socialists in Canada and the rest of the world.

Most of the hon. members here remember the choice faced by the single mother in Toronto who took her case to the media last summer. The media missed the main point by concentrating on whether or not she lost income by giving up her $42,000 a year job and going on welfare. Even if she had suffered a loss of $6,000, what the system does is that under these conditions she is asked to work for $500 a month. She and many Canadians have been deciding that it is not worth their while to work for that amount of income. I do not blame her or anyone else on welfare or UIC for making such choices and neither does society. That is the reason why, in spite of record outlays for social programs, the problems today are alleged to be worse than they were even 20 years ago.

Third, the framers of our large and universal social insurance programs knew that, except in the case of seriously handicapped people, government support should be temporary. It knew that lengthy assistance would create dependency and ultimately hurt recipients more than it helped them on their life voyage. Experience with Canada's programs has now shown that dependency has become a serious problem for a dismaying large number.

The preceding diagnosis of the ills of Canada's social programs cries out for a prescription for a cure. I must confess to you, Mr. Speaker, and the other members of this House that I do not have such a prescription because basically I believe there are none.

What I do have are some ideas on how to alleviate the ills that I have identified. However, the discussion of these ideas must wait. In the meantime, I wish the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre and the government the best of luck in their own search for possible cures, band-aids and palliatives.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Laurent Lavigne Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment briefly on the speech by the hon. member of the Reform Party.

In my opinion, he touched on two critical points. The first is the high cost of social assistance for the less fortunate and the poor in our society. The second is the concern over the cost of administering the government. As of yesterday, the deficit topped the $500 billion mark. This is absurd, frightening and, I would even say, dangerous.

Obviously there is reason for concern about Canada's ballooning debt. The daily interest alone on the debt is astronomical. Why is it that the first reflex we have when it comes to putting our finances in order is to target those who are the least fortunate?

There are many other things that we should consider before turning our attention to the disadvantaged, the poor, the sick, welfare recipients and so forth. This morning's edition of Forum tells the story. There are at least five to six pages of examples of government mismanagement.

Mention is made of the $25 million spent on travel by ministers. Twenty-five million and perhaps ever more, according to the Auditor General. There is a reference to administrative oversights regarding tax breaks for resource companies. I cannot remember the exact amount quoted, but the figure was enormous. I think it was $900 million. Then there is the enormous cost of running our embassies.

The Bloc Quebecois wants to review each administrative item separately and clean house. I am certain there is a considerable amount of money to be recovered. Then, if further cuts were needed, perhaps then we could look at the most disadvantaged. However, we should not start with them. We must start by trimming the fat.

Mention was made of a kitchenette and bathroom installed for the head of Investment Canada at a cost of $125,000, according to what was said this morning. That is enormous. You may say that these are mere drops in the bucket as far as the overall budget goes. However, these are the kinds of expenses we have to tally and eliminate before-

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Speaker

Order. I see the member for Capilano-Howe Sound on his feet. I was waiting for the member for Beauharnois-Salaberry to conclude his remarks. I know the member will be left with a rather brief period of time to answer.

[Translation]

If the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry could finish up quickly, the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound could then respond. Are you nearly finished?

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Laurent Lavigne Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

I want to give the hon. member time to respond, if he wishes, so that will be all, Mr. Speaker.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Reform

Herb Grubel Reform Capilano—Howe Sound, BC

Mr. Speaker, I deplore the idea that we discuss this important issue on how to save Canada from bankruptcy by hammering away at non-existent facts.

On the matter of our deficit the fact is that 60 per cent of all our spending is going to transfers to persons. We have to do something about it. This is where the money is. We cannot save this country with line by line spending examinations and cutting out the sorts of things the hon. member is talking about. Even if we abandoned all the government we could not get our house in order.

Sooner or later, and I believe as quickly as possible, we will have to get at the core of the cause of our financial problems: overspending through the mechanism of transfers to individuals, so-called social programs. Contrary to what the member has said I have identified that we must not attack benefits for the poor. It is because the Reform and I are concerned about maintaining benefits for the poor that I believe we must look at the shortcomings in our current system that I have identified.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, in entering the debate today I would like to seek the permission of the House to be allowed to conclude in 20 minutes even if it oversteps the one o'clock limit.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Speaker

The House has heard the member's request. Is there unanimous consent not to see the clock at one o'clock?

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, this debate is about Canada, its economy and its future. As has been noted from the speeches given yesterday the Liberal view of the economic condition is quite clear. We need to create jobs and to put Canadians in the position to spend and to pay taxes to get the economy going. We need to stop the downward spiral of cuts.

I submit that lack of revenue is the problem. It is not a problem of spending as has been outlined in several interventions so far by representatives of the Reform Party. By contrast, I heard yesterday the leader of the Reform Party recommend to reduce here, to stop spending there: reduce and stop, reduce and stop, cut here, cut there, cut everywhere and inevitably create further unemployment, stagnate the economy and, as an added technique proposed yesterday by the member for Calgary South, put a cap here and there and as long as those who are employed are doing all right everybody else will be fine.

Yesterday the leader of the Reform Party, the member for Calgary South, trotted out an old idea advanced some years ago by two American senators, Gramm and Rudman. He urged spending caps as his remedy for economic ills. Then, to give his imported policy a Canadian touch, he produced another old chestnut. He urged the elimination of old age pensions for Canadians who make more than a certain sum, thus advocating something we reject on this side of the House, two classes of citizens; thus introducing means tests; and thus weakening the cohesion of our social fabric.

I submit that the idea of eliminating old age pensions is actually not new in the ranks of the Reform Party. We will recall that during the election in early October, as reported in one of our national newspapers, a Reform Party candidate in British Columbia was quoted as saying that old age pensions were a form of welfare. That is what he said and that is what must be remembered. It is the agenda of the Reform Party. It is on record. Let us not be deluded today or enchanted by statements made on the part of its representatives as to what was in its program and in its campaign statements.

We cannot accuse the Reform Party of not being consistent. The member for Calgary South is well known for his admiration of the American health system which also divides society into the haves and the have nots: those who have access to social programs and those who do not. There is consistency there no doubt.

Let us go back to the economy. One is forced to conclude that the Reform vision of the economic ills of Canada and their remedies is a rather constipated vision. It badly needs to be put in touch with reality. I invite the leader of the Reform Party to enter, if not the 21st, at least the 20th century. I invite him to

make that effort. In so doing he may discover that government is not an evil force, that unemployment is the disease that needs to be cured in order to get the economy going.

In other words, the leader of the Reform Party is off the mark in his diagnosis of Canada's ills. I submit the problem is not one of expenditures. Canada's problem is one of revenue. Instead of cuts the first recommendation on the road to recovery would be to stimulate and create jobs directly or indirectly. That cannot be achieved, as the member from Calgary who spoke the morning indicated, by balancing the budget. It cannot be done. He should read his economics 101 text to refresh his memory.

Second would be to reduce the underground economy by restoring the confidence of Canadians in our tax system.

A third would be to eliminate as much as possible the tax privileges better known under the name of tax expenditures amounting to billions of dollars in lost revenue to the Canadian public purse.

A fourth would be to repeal the ill conceived legislation passed in 1991, a bill entitled Bill C-19, an act respecting banks and banking, which gave chartered banks a great incentive to invest in bonds at the expense of investing in business.

If there is one point that I would like to leave as being the main thrust of this intervention on my part today, it is that the last thing that Canada needs are cuts in social programs, unlike the theology put forward by Reform Party spokesmen and spokeswomen. A good social security network leads to a healthy and strong economy as the thriving economies outside North America have already proven.

Our illness is not expenditures. The finance department produced last week a most interesting report for November on the condition of Canada's deficit. It was even reproduced nonetheless in the business section of one of our national newspapers, the Globe and Mail , of all places. From that we learned that the deficit in November is down from a year earlier, revenue is down, expenditures are down, program spending is down and debt charges are down. Yes, that is what the Dow Jones article in the Globe and Mail on page B3 of last Saturday reports as a result of a report produced by the finance department.

We can see that the symptoms are that expenditures and revenues are down. One must conclude that the cure is not to reduce further expenditures even more but to increase revenues. That is what we need to do.

One way to increase revenues is to remove the privilege in our tax system which is costing large sums every year to Canadians as a whole. Let me give some examples.

We have the non-taxation of lottery and gambling winnings. Do members know that cost in revenue to the Canadian people every year? For 1991, the latest year for which we have figures, it was a loss of revenue of $860 million.

Then we have the $100,000 exemption of capital gains which meant in the same year a loss in revenue of $665 million. This is not a member of Parliament speaking, it is the finance department speaking in its report issued last week and reproduced partially in the business section of the Globe and Mail as I mentioned a moment ago.

Then we have the dividend, the gross up and credit which account for a loss in revenue of $700 million. Then we have the partial inclusion of capital gains which is a loss in revenue of $665 million. Then we have the investment tax credit of $49 million.

Moving from personal to corporate income tax we find, again according to finance department figures just published last week, items like subsidies for business meals and entertainment. For instance, there is the box at the Skydome in Toronto if one takes it for $100,000 or whatever the fee is, or escort services or no matter what. That total loss of revenue is $357 million.

Then there are subsidies for multinationals investing overseas, such as exemptions in foreign currency deposits. The amount is $505 million a year. Then there is the partial inclusion of capital gains, some $417 million in 1991.

There are more items: subsidies for business lobbying, business advertising, real estate developers and professionals. For all these items, strangely enough, the finance department is incapable of providing a figure despite the urging-note this-of the Auditor General over the last five or six years to do so, if my memory does not fail me. We still do not know the extent of these tax expenditures. I submit that these are tax privileges which in times of economic hardship are unacceptable.

Let me bring up another facet in the jungle of revenue losses. In Canada there is no minimum corporate tax at the present time. Some would think that we must be competitive with the giants south of the border and we cannot have a tax that they do not have. It turns out that in the United States there is a minimum corporate tax of 20 per cent.

We do not know the revenue loss in relation to this tax nor the losses incurred through a Canadian tax exemption called the 21-year trust rule. Has one ever heard about the 21-year trust rule which the Tories renewed in the dying days of the last Parliament? Yes, there is, Maryanna, a tax called the 21-year trust rule. The estimated loss is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. However the finance department is not capable of telling us the precise amount. It cannot. Is that not strange?

All in all, to sum it up because my time is coming to an end, it would be fair to estimate that if the major tax concessions presently existing in the Canadian tax system were to be eliminated the federal public revenue would go up by several billions every year. It is a matter of political will.

If we are to reduce the deficit, I submit in conclusion, then eliminating tax expenditures is a good way of doing it. It could be done without penalizing ordinary Canadians who presently bear the brunt of a taxation system which has, over the last 10 years, been allowed to become regressive, unfair and a burden in order to help the privileged.

Our taxation system cries to heaven. It is in desperate, urgent need to be modernized, made fair and progressive and to be one in which Canadians can have faith. If we do that then the underground economy will gradually reduce and eventually disappear. In doing that also we will not see the need for cutting the social programs which are the product and the result of the architecture of successive Liberal governments over the past 50 years beginning with Mackenzie King in 1939 when unemployment insurance was introduced and moving on to St. Laurent, Pearson and Trudeau.

The Canadian social security system is the result of a Liberal ideology. It is a good one. It needs to be strengthened, not weakened. It is one which will make our economy better and stronger. I submit that we should be proud of it and reinforce it.

Speech From The ThroneGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

It being one o'clock p.m., I do now leave the chair until two o'clock p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(2).

(The House recessed at 1.01 p.m.)

The House resumed at 2 p.m.

AgricultureStatements By Members

12:55 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House find it disturbing to note the lack of specifics in the throne speech on a number of vital national issues. However, we did not expect the government to neglect so completely a subject of utmost importance to rural Canada, and that is agriculture. In fact, its absence is conspicuous. We can only hope that this is not an indication of the government's intention to put agriculture on the back burner.

Farmers like myself are anxiously waiting on that back burner. We are the ones who stand to get burned. This while government chefs cook up higher deficits and more bureaucracy using a recipe they dug out of an old Keynesian cookbook.

The government of today cannot afford to ignore vast regions of our great country. Rural and urban Canadians all deserve equal treatment. All opposition members will require it of this government.

ForestsStatements By Members

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, over time forests have been reduced from 34 per cent to 12 per cent of the world's land mass. In much of the world deforestation continues causing soil loss, land slides, shortages of water, damage to fish and wildlife. Forests provide habitat for biodiversity and absorb carbon dioxide. Life on the planet is threatened when forests are threatened.

However, the world community increasingly recognizes the value of forests. Forests must be given high priority on the international agenda, both politically and scientifically. The proposed royal commission on forests and sustainable development patterned on the Brundtland commission would be a good first step. Unfortunately, in Rio in 1992 the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development issued a weak statement.

Therefore I urge this government to lead like-minded nations toward the establishment of an international forest commission. Such a commission would report on how to sustain forest biodiversity, ensure environmentally sustainable forest management and protect social-ecological systems.

Pier At GrondinesStatements By Members

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, the municipal pier of Grondines, in the riding of Portneuf, is deteriorating. The municipality proposed to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to award a contract for the laying of rocks to protect the jetty, which would solve the problem for several decades to come. As well, Hydro-Québec has agreed to provide the rocks free of charge. Those rocks will be available following the dismantling of a structure used to cross over the waters. The municipality hopes to acquire the pier and use it for recreational purposes.

This project would allow the department to give a new life to the facility and save about one half of the amount it would otherwise have to spend, while at the same time freeing itself of recurrent costs.

Since Hydro-Québec intends to deliver the rocks no later than next summer, I want to co-operate with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans so that his department and the municipalityof Grondines can immediately benefit from this uniqueopportunity.