Debates of Nov. 24th, 1994

Social Program Reform

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see the opposition accuse us of going too fast with the reforms, and to see that it would rather maintain the status quo for all programs in Canada.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

That is false!

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

You have misunderstood! You are not listening!

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I understood that we are going too fast, that we are too efficient, that we want to make changes, that we do not want the status quo, that we want to give the dignity of work to all citizens while the opposition prefers to maintain the status quo. The people of Quebec know very well that we want to see changes in Canada, while the members opposite are satisfied with the status quo. Very well!

Bosnia

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Serbs have said: "If you hit us, this means all out war". Meanwhile 200 peacekeepers are being detained, including 55 Canadian troops. Clearly our peacekeepers are in imminent danger despite claims to the contrary. This is no longer a peacekeeping situation. Will the Minister of National Defence pull our troops out?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I think we have answered some of these questions before. This is a very dangerous situation in Bosnia and Croatia. We knew the risks. We are doing our job there. We have no intention of pulling our forces out. We have said that we want to see the peace process through. We do believe the safety of our forces is paramount in the final analysis.

At this moment in time thankfully they are in good shape. Negotiations are under way and I have every hope this situation will be resolved shortly.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, just two months ago the minister will recall that he renewed the six month commitment. I would like to quote from page 6087 of the September 23, 1994 Hansard . The minister said: ``if the situation on the ground changes or if the political or military situation calls into question the safety of Canadian troops or the usefulness of the UNPROFOR mandate''. This is clearly happening. Will the minister show leadership today and pull our troops out of this situation?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we stand by the statement made in terms of re-engaging our forces. We are not in that kind of a situation. I would only caution the hon. member that it is better in difficult circumstances like this to work together. We should not make this a partisan issue, but should work together to assess and evaluate the situation.

This government will do nothing that will endanger the lives of Canadians serving a very noble cause for the United Nations.

Auditor General's Report

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

The minister admitted in this House that she was not interested in how the Hibernia project was managed. However, the Auditor General is interested in the issue and says that the

government does not have any evaluation mechanism to determine Hibernia's profitability.

Will the minister confirm the information contained in the Auditor General's report to the effect that her department does not have any means to evaluate the Hibernia project, in which the government is investing billions of dollars?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me reassure the hon. member across the way that this government is indeed very interested in the overall management of the Hibernia project. What I stated was that we are not involved in the day to day management decisions, the operating decisions affecting the project.

I have read that which the Auditor General has said in his report. The hon. member knows that to be fair he should point out that the Auditor General indicates we have gone a very long way to put in place systems to ensure this project is managed appropriately and that the taxpayers' money is spent effectively.

Let me suggest to the hon. member that we will continue to improve the mechanisms we have in place to ensure the taxpayers' money is spent effectively.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is omitting the fact that this evaluation mechanism will only be in place once construction of Hibernia is completed. Talk about control!

In this period of budget constraints, how can the minister explain to Canadian and Quebec taxpayers that she is sinking three billion dollars into a project without having any way of evaluating its profitability?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me make it absolutely plain that the Government of Canada does have an evaluation mechanism. The Auditor General suggested that we improve it and we are doing that.

The Deficit

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

This government has been asking for spending cut recommendations. Mr. Parizeau recently said that Canada's system of equalization payments is too generous and saps the initiative of Quebecers. Why does the government not hit two birds with one stone: Reduce the deficit by $3 billion and simultaneously stop sapping the initiatives of Quebecers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the statements of the Premier of Quebec are very interesting.

Yes, we probably could study his suggestion that we cut on transfer payments of that nature. However I think he has not thought it through completely. I could hit two birds and two home runs at the same time but I think that for the good of Quebecers it is better to keep equalization payments in place.

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General in his report noted that welfare and UI create dependency and add to unemployment in Canada. Does the Prime Minister recognize the opportunities for budgetary savings which arise from these facts?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Long before the report of the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker, we decided to have a reform to do that, to make sure that these moneys are used to create opportunities and training.

The main goal is not to make money to reduce the deficit. If we can do it at the same time it would be perfect. The main goal is to use our money better and help people get training and get a job so that they will become productive. That is exactly what the Minister of Human Resources Development is doing at this time. I am delighted he will have the support of the hon. member.

Canadian National

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

Pressed by the media, the president of CN, Mr. Paul Tellier, admitted yesterday during a press conference that three or four CN administrators enjoy the same benefits as he does, namely interest-free loans.

Since these interest-free loans are not mentioned in the annual information circular of the company, will the minister confirm the information given by Mr. Tellier, and will he tell us how many directors of CN enjoy this type of benefit, as well as the amount of taxpayers' money which is loaned in that fashion to these CN officers?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is fully aware that yesterday we explained that the benefits granted to the CEO of CN and to its board of directors are an internal decision of the corporation. The salary is set by order in council.

As I suggested yesterday, the CEO of CN held a press conference and answered questions from the media, as I knew he would. If the hon. member has other questions, he should address them to the appropriate body, namely CN's board of directors.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the minister not agree that any amount of money loaned to senior officials of CN or any Crown corporation accountable to his department should be declared, so that the shareholders of these corporations, namely Canadian taxpayers, are aware of such practices?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that there are rules to be followed in this type of transaction. As I have indicated on a number of occasions, the arrangements between the president of CN and the board is one that is subject to the controls that are internal to a crown corporation.

The rules as I understand them are that if any loans are made in excess of salary they have to be declared. That was the basis of the legal advice the president referred to yesterday. I have indicated in this House before that it is very, very complicated when you get into loans and acquiring homes in defining what the rules are, as the leader of the government in Quebec well knows.

Fisheries

[Bonnie Hickey, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, last July, Canada arrested two U.S. fishing vessels fishing Icelandic scallops beyond our 200 mile limit. At that time Canada's actions were described by the United States spokesperson as illegal.

Can the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans tell the House what action has been taken to resolve this disagreement with our friends in the United States?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for St. John's East who has a powerful and passionate commitment to the livelihood of the fishermen of Newfoundland for raising this important question.

Yesterday the Government of Canada received a communication from the Government of the United States. It was by way of a diplomatic note in which the United States recognized fully and without reservation Canada's jurisdiction over Icelandic scallops both inside and outside the 200 mile limit.

National Defence

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

Last week Major Barry Armstrong, a military doctor, released information indicating orders had been given to destroy certain photographic evidence. Last night Major Lee Jewer, another military doctor, confirmed that orders had indeed been given to destroy photographs showing a pattern of mistreatment of Somali civilians.

Has the minister asked Major Lee Jewer who issued the order to destroy potential evidence?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that we have announced an inquiry which will be open and which will be civilian, I do not think it is in the best interests of justice for me to join in these kinds of discussions.

I am concerned about the fact that another member of the Canadian Armed Forces has made a public statement without authorization. The hon. member should know that as a condition of service if individuals have something to communicate they communicate it through their superior.

I overlooked the rules last week because what Major Armstrong said was of such purport and seriousness that I believe he had the right as every Canadian citizen does to make this particular statement. Therefore, we called for an inquiry. We cannot have this matter tried on a daily basis in the newspapers, on television programs or here in the House of Commons. It has to go to the inquiry.

As a result I have directed the Chief of Defence Staff to inform members of the armed forces of the sensitivity of this matter and remind them of their obligations as members of the armed forces in the interests of justice. Hon. members opposite may not care about justice, but we on this side of the House do.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister will know and the House is aware that the events in Somalia happened almost two years ago. Every time we get closer to having an investigation, pop, poof, somebody else gets charged and the investigation gets put back another six months. Two years have passed already. The circumstances of this case demand an immediate investigation.

Further, Mr. Minister, members of the Canadian Armed Forces have a-