Debates of Dec. 1st, 1994

Department Of Industry Act

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I do this with respect. The member knows of my affection for him. However, I am having a difficult time linking the relevance of what he is saying to the actual amendment. I would ask for clarification on that.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am surely not required to give an explanation to somebody from the Liberal government on how I express-

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I am sorry. The hon. member should, however, be relevant.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Madam Speaker, I just heard these people here, these separatists, talking about regional development. That is what I am talking about. I am not going to stand here and justify to a member, Madam Speaker. I can justify to you. This is about regional development and that is what I am

going to talk about whether this government likes it or not. I will continue my speech on regional development if the member does not mind. I hope this time is added on to my speech.

The concept of regional development is what we are talking about here. We will try to get a concept through these minds here. As I understand it and as the Auditor General has so reported the concept, it is to support and promote the opportunity for economic development, to foster development of entrepreneurship, to increase the rate of new business formation and to improve competitiveness of small and medium size business.

I find the concept of entrepreneurship and government sponsored dollars incompatible. That is something this government has to learn as well.

For instance I have been tracking some of the payments made by this government. There is an individual who has received the entrepreneur of the year award in one of our great provinces. He has received something like seven or nine grants from one of the regional economic development programs. I find that hard to understand. It is an oxymoron. To be the entrepreneur of the year and have the government shovel money your way just does not fit, but I do not think this government understands this.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

You do not understand that?

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

As far as the value to industry, this is an industry bill. I am still relevant, am I Madam Speaker? I am just making sure.

I have a great deal of difficulty with the concept of regional development in industry and shelling out the dollars. We have to start eliminating these four regional development programs. This government is handing out $1.4 billion a year and a lot of that is shelled out not for the concepts I talked about. It is not necessarily for fostering entrepreneurship. It is not necessarily to increase the rate of new business formation and improve competitiveness. In fact, improvement of competitiveness philosophy really does not work at all in some cases from regional development grants.

For example, there are some regional development grants given by this government to motels and inns across this country, but the trouble is it gives to one and not to another. How do we get competitiveness by giving a grant on the backs of the taxpayers to one and not to another? I do not understand that philosophy at all.

Members of the Liberal Party stand in the House and say: "Big daddy is going to pass out your money", and another party says: "You should not be doing that. We have our own. You are wasting the money". Rather than doing that, maybe for a moment they should consider phasing them out. If a government has to borrow from Japan, Germany or the United States to hand this money out it should really consider its management style.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

I cannot believe you are saying this.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Well I am saying it and I mean it.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

And the taxpayers mean it too. They are tired of it.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

You guys are missing the point.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

What about the young people coming behind us? What about the debt load we have taxed to these people? What about the taxes the small business person is paying? What about the interest that Canada itself must pay to pay back the debt? It is all borrowed money on the backs of the taxpayers and the young people so that this government can shell out $1.3 billion a year to regions.

Do we need grants? Why do we need grants? Why do we need regional development? Regional development is important. But to the Liberal Party regional development means shelling out dollars to those you know. Next week in this House of Commons I will be disclosing some of those they know who get money.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

What would you do? You say it is important. But what do you mean by that?

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Only when it is absolutely necessary should the government be in the business of private industry.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Broadview—Greenwood, ON]

Give us an example.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Madam Speaker, not to expand a tea room for $99,000. They call that regional development and it is not. Not to modernize a campground and facilities. That is up to the owner with his profits. It is up to the individual to expand in regional development.

Finally, this government really does not have a clue on regional development. We heard the separatist party here talking about what is wrong with it and we are saying the government cannot afford it. And I think I was relevant.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I would like to remind members that Motions Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 will be grouped for debate but voted on as follows:

A vote on Motion No. 2 applies to Motions Nos. 4, 5 and 7. An affirmative vote on Motion No. 2 obviates the necessity of the question being put on Motions Nos. 3, 6 and 8. On the other hand, a negative vote on Motion No. 2 necessitates the question being put on Motion No. 3. A vote on Motion No. 3 applies to Motions Nos. 6 and 8.

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

The question is on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen: