House of Commons Hansard #23 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was social.

Topics

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, there was not really a question in the comment, but I would like to say that the racing car that I mentioned was not my own. It was a rented car. Four of us shared it. I hope the member does not think I am talking from a different strata.

I noticed that last year there were 427 housing starts in British Columbia. That compares very favourably with what that I see from Quebec. We might well compare statistics.

I am not suggesting for one second that social housing is not important. I am suggesting that it be placed on a priority list and that is what I ask each member to do.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if, according to parliamentary procedure, I can say that the hon. member is dead wrong. You see, the people who have poor lodgings cost a lot of money to our society. Their health is bound to deteriorate, their children do not do as well in school as they should be and, eventually, do not find the jobs they would otherwise have been able to get.

A society that does not care for the people living in poor conditions and those in need gets into debt, because it does not tap the human capital and the talent of those people. In fact, if we were to follow the suggestion made by the hon. member, not only would we be putting the rope around our neck, but we would also be pulling on it.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

If my memory serves me right, there should not be any problem with the expression "dead wrong". The hon. member for Macleod has the floor.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, I understand the hon. member's passion about this particular issue but I would simply ask him and everyone else in the House what they would give up so that they could have more social housing. In the light of our financial circumstances in our country what would they give up? If they would push this priority higher, what would they take away?

I simply say come and explain to me what they would give up.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The time has expired for questions and comments.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Ontario, ON

I have only a question for the hon. member, because like his colleague-

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. The time has expired for questions and comments.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, the United Nations have declared 1994 the International Year of the Family. We must however admit that the families of Quebec and Canada are having a very hard time making ends meet.

In such a meaningful year, should a responsible government not be preparing a policy on social housing to assist the most needy among us in their quest for a reasonable and affordable home?

The needs in social housing are most strongly felt in urban areas. For example, in Limoilou and in the lower town, in my riding, there are at least 1,200 households on waiting lists for a place in low-cost housing projects and more than 600 households are waiting for co-operative housing.

Nearly half the persons living in downtown neighbourhoods, who represent 85 per cent of the total population, live below the poverty line. Given such a situation, we believe it is important that, through an urban planning policy, we preserve and revitalize the life of those neighbourhoods.

But there is more. Studies show that in the riding of Québec alone, 38 per cent of all families in the lower town and Limoilou must devote more than 30 per cent of their gross income to housing. In the riding, 9,430 households out of a total of 20,165-that is almost 47 per cent of all families-have a gross income of less than $29,999. Forty-seven per cent! Are there any members in this House who would not react to such statistics?

The average income of men in the central neighbourhoods of the riding of Quebec was $14,078 in 1986 as compared to an average income of $19,440 for the province as a whole. Women are always poorer than men, but the gap was not so wide in their case. It is easy to understand why: their average income was $10,260 compared to $11,884 for the province. According to Statistics Canada, out of 21,450 economic families, 29.1 per cent were considered to be low-income.

Still in my riding of Québec, there are 4,960 single-parent families, 86 per cent of which have a woman as head of the household, that is 4,260. For the province of Quebec, that figure is 81.86 per cent. The equation womanhood=poverty is still quite real.

Considering that 52.7 per cent of dwellings in downtown Quebec were built before 1946 and that another 22.8 per cent were built between 1946 and 1960, it is easy understand the importance of a renovation assistance program.

Furthermore, the 1986 data show a rental occupancy rate of 79.5 per cent in the old neighbourhoods of the riding while the average for the province is 45.1 per cent. The situation of most of my constituents is very clear. They are too poor to buy a house, therefore they rent in buildings built before 1946 and they devote more than 30 per cent of their income to that item alone. In fact, in Quebec today, 404,045 households are obliged to spend more than 30 per cent of their income on housing. In November 1993, the Popular Action Front for Urban Redevelopment estimated that 195,000 Quebec households spent more than 50 per cent of their income on housing.

That is what being poor means. In view of these alarming figures, the government should make a formal commitment to support social housing. Quebec City understands. As I mentioned before in the House, on January 10, 1994, the city adopted a resolution asking the federal government to review the budget for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. The city demanded adequate funding for social housing, reinstatement of the co-operative housing program and a new program to provide assistance for renovation of rental housing.

In this way, the municipal authorities want to ensure that families do not pay more than 25 per cent of their income for housing. How can we expect families that who have to spend more than 30 per cent of their meagre income on housing to make ends meet? How can they afford decent food, adequate clothing, medicine and a few much-needed leisure activities? It would take more than a degree in economics or home economics to accomplish that.

Although it may be a cliché, we will keep saying it until we get our message across: Let the government put its money where its mouth is. The Bloc Quebecois has a mandate to promote sovereignty. It also has a mandate to support government action that is necessary and socially responsible, while defending the interests of Quebec.

It is a fact the federal government has imposed standards on Quebec that have prevented the latter from adopting a social policy that meets its real needs and aspirations. More and more, Quebec is losing its ability to control its social development. Quebecers are suffering as a result of poor federal management of the economy, and they are stuck between reductions in transfer payments and the obligation to abide by federal standards.

There is, however, a commonality of purpose between the government and the Bloc Quebecois with respect to the challenges facing the government. In fact, we support stimulating employment through programs that create real, well-paying and long term jobs. We support tax reform to relieve the tax burden on families and others in our society.

Finally, we support reducing the deficit by putting public financing on a sounder footing. However, public spending should not be cut at the expense of the neediest in our society. There are Quebecers and Canadians who have been left to fend for themselves and in recent years have seen these cuts affect the bare necessities of their lives.

We believe that investing in social housing will be an investment in job creation. Every social housing unit built means 2.2 jobs. I say this because job creation seems to be this government's prime objective, and it was part of its platform in the last election campaign.

Perhaps we could backtrack very briefly. In its well known red book, the Liberal Party of Canada said, and I quote: "In many areas and neighbourhoods in Canada, the quality of housing needs to be improved in order to achieve adequate standards of safety, health and energy efficiency. The recently cancelled Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program, which provided a loan or grant for home renovation to people of modest incomes, should be revived as a method for investing in the physical and social fabric of our communities. A Liberal government will make $50 million a year available through the RRAP loan program for two years".

Further on, we read: "We must choose to make our social investments where we believe they will do the most good and have the greatest effect for the resources spent and for the long term future. We will focus our efforts on health care, children's

needs, safety in our communities and the quality and cultural identity of Canadians".

On January 18, 1994, the elected government announced with great pomp in the throne speech the reintroduction of the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. It outlined its intention to take measures to combat violence against women and children. It also announced the establishment of a centre of excellence "to ensure that women's health issues receive the attention they deserve".

On February 13, the Liberals celebrated their first 100 days in office. They even published a nice brochure outlining their accomplishments. By the way, it would be interesting to know if we could have built or rehabilitated one or more housing units with the money used to produce this brochure. This pamphlet called "Creating Opportunity: The First 100 Days" does not say anything about social housing.

In its February 8, 1994 letter to the Prime Minister, the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women pointed out that, in its February 1993 report, the Standing Committee on Justice and the Solicitor General said that crime was the outcome of the interaction of a constellation of factors. It is a social problem with many elements such as poverty, physical and sexual abuse, low self-esteem, inadequate housing, school failure and unemployment.

The council recommended that the Prime Minister take into account the committee's conclusions in a multi-faceted approach aimed at guaranteeing safe homes and communities.

Women's health and safety is largely dependent on access to adequate and affordable housing where they can care for their children and protect themselves, if necessary, from a violent spouse or ex-spouse. It is the same for older women, for handicapped women and for so many women who are still waiting.

Ottawa's gradual pull-out has demonstrated the limits of the administrative agreements between Quebec and the federal government in cases of unilateral withdrawal. Quebec has been caught short by the extent of Ottawa's financial pull-out from housing, after following the strong and highly centralized leadership of its main financial backer under this agreement.

The federal budget allocation criteria for programs that have since disappeared have always put Quebec at a disadvantage, particularly because of the rigidity of the so-called national standards. This situation must cease, and the concept of equity must be reintroduced in the management and allocation of funds earmarked for these programs.

Contrary to the terms of the framework agreement with Quebec and as a result of its unilateral pull-out from social and co-op housing programs, the federal government is destabilizing Quebec's housing programs and affecting the planning of such housing by municipal authorities. It is one of the major shortcomings of the administrative agreements.

Let us take Quebec's current situation as an example. Just two weeks ago, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation announced that it was granting seven subsidies of $20,000 or less for projects aimed at improving the affordability and selection of housing. Of the seven groups who received subsidies, five Ontario municipalities shared a total of $51,000; one Alberta municipality received $18,750; and one Saskatchewan municipality got $10,000. There was nothing for Quebec. Such figures make comments unnecessary.

Of course, when we talk about subsidies, the economic situation comes up again.

Let me remind the government that Canada's military spending is six times what we used to spend on social housing.

In conclusion, I hope that, in this International Year of the Family, the living and housing conditions of Canadian and Quebec families will improve thanks to concerted, adequate and equitable government action.

The Bloc Quebecois is calling for the immediate reintroduction of the co-op housing program, for the creation of a rental housing rehabilitation assistance program, for assurances that the poor will not have to spend more than 25 per cent of their income on housing, and for wider access to home ownership through the co-op movement.

We are asking the Canadian government to embrace the social philosophy of other countries such as Great Britain and the Netherlands, where social housing accounts for 70 per cent of all rental housing, and Sweden, where this proportion is 55 per cent. In Canada, in 1991, social housing amounted to 10 per cent of all rental housing.

It is a question of social justice and not a question of passion as Reform members seem to think.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dianne Brushett Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the hon. member for her in depth remarks on social housing in the province of Quebec and in particular on her in depth knowledge of the red book and the investigations and recommendations the Liberal Party went to in bringing forward its recommendations for social housing across Canada.

We have that mandate. If the hon. member would look at the record it was the Liberal Party that brought in RRAP back in the 1970s. It will be the Liberal Party that will institute RRAP again.

The hon. member refers to the special CMHC housing projects. The money granted a few weeks ago was for special projects that were based on submissions. Perhaps the hon. member could inquire if the province of Quebec made any submissions for modern day housing, for further insulation, for new arrangements and architectural designs that were conducive to more efficient housing as we move into the 21st century.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her comments. I will try to find out whether there were any submissions from Quebec. What I know is that I received at my office a letter from the CMHC saying there were no housing starts in Quebec under the program mentioned. I will find out more about that.

[English]

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what history the hon. member opposite studied when she makes her remarks, but I know I am not unfamiliar with the history of the province of Quebec.

Like all provinces Quebec has benefited enormously from being a partner in Confederation. Quebec has certainly benefited financially.

Is the hon. member not aware that when one considers equalization payments, the province of Quebec has seen more tax dollars flow to it than have flown out of that province? Is she completely unaware of the enormous financial benefit that has accrued to the province of Quebec from the other provinces of Confederation?

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, let us say that we do not have the same figures. The figures I have on social housing show that, since 1986, the difference in grants for social housing, between Quebec and other provinces, varies between 10 and 13 per cent.

This is not the only area in which Quebec does not get its fair share. There are others. I do not think we have the same book.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, if I might pursue this, I think perhaps we are starting to get somewhere. We are hearing a Bloc member who is willing to admit, if I heard the hon. member correctly, that perhaps she was not looking at the whole picture. I would submit it is time that the hon. member did that. It is time all members of the Bloc did that. It is time they understood what other Canadians understand.

Most of us are very pleased to have the province of Quebec as part of Canada. Quite frankly we feel that Quebecers will always choose to remain a part of Confederation. The statistics are unchallengeable. Quebec has benefited far more from taxes going to it as a province in this Confederation than it has paid out when one considers all fiscal arrangements in its totality. If the hon. member is unaware of that I would be happy to share those statistics with her.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I believe the debate today is on social housing. It would take more than two minutes to list for the hon. member all the areas were Quebec was short-changed. I do not say he is right. I urge all my colleagues from the Bloc to give the hon. member the right answers. Whether it be research and development or agriculture, we know very well that Quebec is not always well served by the federal system.

Take my riding for instance. I had two giant candidates running against me on October 25, but despite all the good things they promised would come from the federal system, the people of the Quebec riding said: "No, we do not want to relive what we went through all those years". This is a debate we may have some day in the House, but not now.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about social housing, we are talking about people in need, and it should be clearly understood, contrary to what was just said, that Quebec receives as much money as it is putting in, around $28 billion. Quebec taxpayers pay $28 billion to Ottawa and receive in return $28 billion from Ottawa. It is their money. But the way it comes back to them has a direct impact on social housing. This money comes back mainly as unemployment insurance and transfer payments for public assistance, instead of coming back as research and development contracts or other types of government contracts which would create jobs, as is the case in Ontario and other provinces.

We can see, first of all, that there is absolutely no preferential treatment for Quebec. It only receives what it puts in. But Quebec is treated less fairly because the quality of the money it gets back is inferior compared to other provinces, and that has a direct impact on social housing.

Would my colleague, the member for Québec, care to comment?

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I agree with these comments. Indeed, the facts we are presenting are very important. The money the federal government returns to Quebec takes the form of unemployment insurance and social housing funding, and we do not get our fair share. Therefore, I believe that we should ask for a debate, in this House, to see item by item, issue by issue, how Quebec feels in this so-called fair system.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member had the courage, and we must be grateful to him for it, of turning the debate to broader considerations. I think that we could agree with him, if he wants to engage in that exercise-I am inclined to think that he is an avid reader-I

might suggest that he refer to two documents which mobilized all of Quebec. These documents were tabled at the Bélanger-Campeau commission, of which he is aware. These documents give a very accurate picture of the investments made not since Confederation, because the comparison would not be exact, but in the last 20 years.

We referred to experts, not nationalist experts, we studied, we surveyed the kinds of investment made by the federal government, and I believe that our colleague would find out that in many fields, Quebec received less. Where it received more, and there are all sorts of variables; we talked about demographics, we talked about its strength as a region within Canada, and I am sure that if our colleague went through these documents, he would recognize their intellectual merit.

The conclusion of Bélanger-Campeau may surprise him, but it disappointed us. Where Quebec received the most is in unemployment insurance. That certainly explains why the Conseil du patronat du Québec does not want Quebec to take over unemployment insurance. Our colleague will agree that unemployment insurance is not what one can call an economically productive investment.

So if he wants to get into this, I am prepared to cooperate so that together we can look at these figures following the work of Bélanger-Campeau.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I do believe that the member for Québec has no comment to add to what was just said.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Indeed, I have no comment. I just would like to say that I agree with my colleague from the Bloc Quebecois.

We should go back and reread certain works which have already been published and analysed to see how Quebec often finds itself the poor relation in several federal policy areas.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, given that we are just now coming out of the recession, social housing has become an important consideration and an ongoing concern for the Liberal Party. While housing provides jobs, our aims are not economic ones. Rather, they have more to do with social awareness.

As a physician, I see social housing as much more than construction materials and labour. To a large extent, it helps to improve the quality of life of the least fortunate members of our society, and this is what is important.

The federal government's long-standing commitment with its provincial and territorial partners to help Canadians in need to find decent housing has helped Canada earn a reputation for itself as a nation with one of the highest standards of housing in the world.

The federal government ensures that all Canadians, regardless of who they are or where they live, have equal access to federal housing resources.

Social housing in Canada addresses the needs of specific groups, namely senior citizens, single-parent households, disabled persons, native communities and low-income earners. In short, social housing is inextricably linked to the physical structure and social fabric of our communities.

The federal government has made a long-standing commitment to social housing in this country. It currently subsidizes approximately 652,000 units on an ongoing basis. More than half of these units also benefit from provincial or territorial subsidies.

I want to stress again today that the federal government is not shirking its responsibility in the field of social housing, as some circles would have us believe. We will continue to respect our present commitments to social housing.

Annual expenditures of roughly $2 billion reflect the federal government's fierce determination to help Canadians in need.

Moreover, regardless of how much money is allocated to social housing in various regions of the country, the quality of existing housing must also be improved. No one should have to live in substandard housing. No one should have to live in housing that fails to provide the basic necessities.

Providing decent housing for all Canadians is important to the government. That is why the government recently announced in the throne speech it was reintroducing the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program for both owner-occupants and disabled persons as well as the Emergency Repair Program in rural and isolated areas.

This means that the federal government will be spending $50 million a year for the next two years, that is to say a total amount of $100 million, to help low-income households bring their dwellings up to safety and sanitation standards.

The RRAP is expected to create thousands of direct and indirect jobs. Of course, the re-establishment of this program will have significant economic spin-offs on the Canadian economy, the construction industry, real estate, the manufacturing industry and related services.

The provinces and territories have been asked to share the costs of this established program. The province of Quebec for instance recently announced the REPARACTION program, a home renovation program for low-income owner-occupants. In the light of the reintroduction of the federal RRAP and the new provincial home renovation program, the federal government will be working in a partnership with the Province of Quebec to

make arrangements regarding how costs should be shared and particularly to try and eliminate to some extent duplication of services.

The federal government is doing its best to provide acceptable levels of service to Canadians and to do so in the most responsible manner, given the present budget restraints.

In the same spirit, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation is offering a direct loan program for all public housing to maximize the use of existing resources and cut spending.

With this program, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation expects to save approximately $120 million over the next four years. Through these measures of effectiveness combined with new initiatives like direct funding, the federal government will be able to maintain the current housing stock and, more importantly, have a certain leeway to implement new initiatives in the area of social housing.

All levels of government have now recognized the need for innovative solutions to promote the production of affordable social housing. It will be imperative that the federal government work in conjunction with the provinces if we want a global and concerted approach to be adopted.

Also, the federal government has reiterated that program changes and the gains made in terms of efficiency within the social housing envelope will serve to create new housing initiatives.

At a recent meeting of housing ministers, it was agreed to pursue joint rather than unilateral efforts in that area.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, the ultimate goal of this government is, as stated in our red book, to put human dignity back into public housing policy.

Before closing, I would like to take this opportunity to thank publicly the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation for its involvement in the funding of homes for battered women. Without its support, there could be no such home in Pierrefonds-Dollard.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to make sure I understand the hon. member. I sensed some enthusiasm, which I do not quite share but which I can understand, considering that he is a government member. Are we talking about the same thing since, so far as we know on this side of the House, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program or RRAP, is exclusively for the benefit of owner-occupants?

Something is provided for aboriginal people but, for the years to come, the program's funding is exclusively for owner-occupants. In that sense, to refer to it as an income maintenance program for the have-nots of our society implies a form of generosity which was not intended by the cabinet.

If I misunderstood the scope of the program, I will be very happy to find out that it will indeed be made available to a larger number of people. However, the press release clearly stated that the program was exclusively designed for owner-occupants.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I thank the hon. member for his comment. As I understand it, the RRAP is designed for owner-occupants. But, as we just saw, that government program could be expanded to other groups.

This program is targeted to owner-occupants, but will it become a form of family support? It could be the case, because if we help those who have difficulty making ends meet buy materials to make their house more comfortable and safer, it becomes a form of direct support. However, the goal is really to make social housing more accessible to a large number of people.

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

A social housing unit?

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

It is still a social housing unit occupied by an owner-occupant.

I come from a much more prosperous area than you. Your riding of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve is a riding-

Business Of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Please address your comments to the Chair, so as to avoid debates and arguments.