Debates of March 17th, 1994

Aboriginal Self-Government

[The Speaker]

The hon. minister will address his remarks to the Chair please.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party refers to the use of the word redneck. Where was that said?

[An hon. member]

Where?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

In this House.

[An hon. member]

Who said it?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Who said it? A member of the Reform Party on January 27. What did he say? Do you want to hear me say it?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

"I have been called a redneck myself and it is a label I wear with considerable pride".

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I see the hon. member is bowing. Now he bows. He still accepts that. Mr. Speaker, who am I to question such exact self-analysis given in the House where the hon. member is free to say whatever he wants.

[Some hon. members]

More, More.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

The member for Swift Current-Maple Creek used that term to describe someone who did not believe in political correctness. The hon. member used that term to denounce someone as a racist and an ignoramus.

The minister apologized for calling Reform supporters Indian haters a few weeks ago. Just one day ago he called a fellow member a redneck. The minister's words provide no assurance.

What concrete thing is the minister going to do to demonstrate his intent? Will he apologize in writing? Will he go outside the House with the member for Athabasca and apologize in front of the cameras? Will the minister resign?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I will tell the leader of the Reform Party what I am going to do. If he starts telling his people not to make these remarks in the House, I will not repeat them.

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government says that its decision to transfer training activities from the College in Saint-Jean to Kingston was motivated by the need to save money. Unfortunately, we cannot get any credible figures. Yesterday, the Prime Minister said in the House: "I do not need to spend more money to see or to have experts tell me that we do not need three military colleges for 65,000 members" of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Considering that it will cost $6 million to maintain an empty building in Saint-Jean, that it will cost a lot more to train students in Kingston instead of in Saint-Jean and that the Prime Minister's project may end up costing a lot of money, is the Prime Minister not afraid that all these expenses will considerably reduce the amounts saved by concentrating officer training at the college in Kingston?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member came to the standing committee the other day and was given all of the facts that were available. He was not satisfied. He was not satisfied in getting the facts in the printed form or from the general in charge of personnel of the armed forces of Canada.

We really do want to satisfy the hon. member for Roberval who does have a Bloc mentality in some cases and pardon my play on words. Therefore later today I will issue a detailed financial statement to the hon. member and to members of the press gallery. Hopefully the hon. member will read it tonight and will not come back tomorrow for more explanation.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, either the Prime Minister and his Minister of National Defence have the figures and they refuse to make them available to Canadians by tabling them here in the House or the Prime Minister made this decision to close the only francophone military college on the spur of the moment, to save his Minister of National Defence.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer this question. First of all, I want to say that Saint-Jean is not a French college but a bilingual college, like Kingston. And I am very pleased to hear that people who fought against bilingualism in Quebec are anxious to keep a bilingual institution in Quebec.

Unfortunately, as I said before, we are making major spending cuts. The United States, with two million service men, have three military colleges. In Canada, we have 65,000, so we can dispense with two of our colleges. We have decided to consolidate the two bilingual colleges, Saint-Jean and Kingston, and make one college in Kingston.

I also think the hon. member will realize that, if he looks at this objectively, the defence cuts in Quebec were less severe than in other parts of Canada, and if I had acted on his leader's recommendations, we would have cut far more, because we did not cut 25 per cent of the defence budget.

Aboriginal Self-Government

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

It is becoming clearer all the time that the minister does not understand the widespread concern over the meaning of aboriginal self-government. The minister must know there are several fundamentally different definitions of what self-government actually means. These range from the minimal concept of municipal government to the opposite extreme of absolute sovereignty as a nation state.

Does the minister still not understand why so many Canadians both inside and outside the aboriginal community believe we must define at least some broad parameters around what is and what is not acceptable in the definition of aboriginal self-government before it can be agreed to even in principle?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member. It is a very difficult subject.

Self-government is something we are working with. That is part of our consultative process. As the hon. member knows, we have allocated $4 million for discussions over the next six months. There will be models evolving which are culturally and regionally sensitive. It will come.

I ask the hon. member for two things: be patient and be constructive.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, aboriginal self-government sometimes if not always is a frustrating issue. The minister has demonstrated time and time again his inability to control his emotions when dealing with it.

As an elected member of this Parliament, I deserve the same level of respect as members opposite, even if we should present a different point of view on the issues brought before this House.

If the minister is truly interested in the benefits of all concerned parties will he consider stepping aside so that we can proceed on this issue without further interruption?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, there is only one way to earn respect in this House: you have to work for it. You have to put your points forward and they have to be respected by your peers.

Goods And Services Tax

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Prime Minister whether he supported applying a new GST to health care and medication. He gave the following answer, and I quote: "All taxes collected by the government go into the government's consolidated fund and this money is used to pay for all the government's programs." With this answer, the Prime Minister left all of his options open.

Will the Prime Minister tell us, yes or no, if he is preparing to extend the GST to health care and medication, as some of his own members have hinted?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to hear it. This is the first time I have received such a clear, direct answer.

The Prime Minister has stated very clearly that the new GST will not apply to health care and medication. Is he also prepared to say that the new GST will not apply to food either, given that his Minister of Finance was rather vague about this last week, as vague as the Prime Minister was yesterday?